myk Posted February 1, 2006 Mordeth said: Postcript for Map01: my guess that the most important reason for map01 to become such a "standard" map was that it was the default level in the DOS days. It surely helps the map's fame that it's the first map of DOOM II, no one doubts that, but such an easy explanation leaves many things unsaid and widens a rift between dedicated players and designers. DeathMatch is more about interaction than single player is, and close observation the games of strangers and playing among them becomes even more crucial for good DM maps to be produced, even if at first glance it seems they play a map merely because its easy to access. Additionally, it's not just the command line ease; if you meet a stranger it's true one of you or both could go through the process of trying a new map, and often will, but it also furthers a good challenge if you play a map that each should have practice in by now. But then, if it really sucked, players with experience would drop it for other levels, and they often do not (and I wouldn't call them dumb or misled.) They will add good maps to their repertoire, but will also stay active in Map01. And why not? It works out for tight "showdown" one-on-one matches and the added exchange and experience on it furthers the game in a sport-like fashion. 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 1, 2006 Belial said:OMG that made me laugh so hard. At least try to find out who you're talking to before you attempt 'owning' them. Ya, this guy really has no idea who I am, it's kinda funny. Maybe I should just play him in a bunch of DM's, and he'll soon realize :) Re-read my post btw comic, I said I play any map ;) It's no lie that my main maps are: Map1, D5M1, D5M2, D5M7, D5M18, D6M1, D6M6, D7M1, Judas23_, ssl2, anything from Vex-DooM and GothicDM Map11. These are only a few, I guess that's not a wide variety though in your opinion, but that's ok, I can learn a map on the fly, and well, my aim and movement clearly gives me an edge. So if you'd like to DM sometime, just catch up with me, I prefer doom2.exe, but if you can't run that anymore, I guess ZDaemon would be fine, or ZDooM, or prboom... One more added comment, Map1 isn't as easy to memorize as you think, if everything to know about map1 was written down on paper or in a guide (I'm actually planning on constructing one) it would be about 100 pages long or more. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 1, 2006 DevastatioN said:Ya, this guy really has no idea who I am, it's kinda funny. Maybe I should just play him in a bunch of DM's, and he'll soon realize :) Re-read my post btw comic, I said I play any map ;) It's no lie that my main maps are: Map1, D5M1, D5M2, D5M7, D5M18, D6M1, D6M6, D7M1, Judas23_, ssl2, anything from Vex-DooM and GothicDM Map11. These are only a few, I guess that's not a wide variety though in your opinion, but that's ok, I can learn a map on the fly, and well, my aim and movement clearly gives me an edge. So if you'd like to DM sometime, just catch up with me, I prefer doom2.exe, but if you can't run that anymore, I guess ZDaemon would be fine, or ZDooM, or prboom... One more added comment, Map1 isn't as easy to memorize as you think, if everything to know about map1 was written down on paper or in a guide (I'm actually planning on constructing one) it would be about 100 pages long or more. First off, I'm not attempting to "own" anyone, I'm not a crazy obsessed DMer. Secondly, I could really care less if you play "any map" I could say the same, as well as any doomer. And as for "who you are", It's not that I dont know, it's that I honestly dont care. I could care less if you were a newbie or a Doomgod, I'm stating that your comments are foolish and make no sense. And to end off, Map01 is INCREDIBLY easy to memorize, I know I have over the time I've been playing it, it's just as bad as Dwango5. As for a challenge, it'd be fun, contact me some time if you'd like to give it a go. And Doom2.exe is fine, although I like Zdoom more. 0 Share this post Link to post
DaniJ Posted February 2, 2006 Maybe I should just play him in a bunch of DM's Sounds like a great idea! Make sure you record a demo so we can all poke fun at the loser :) 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted February 2, 2006 DaniJ said: Make sure you record a demo so we can all poke fun at the loser :) Wasn't that what forums are for? But DM is for the good times and challenge. 0 Share this post Link to post
DaniJ Posted February 2, 2006 Wasn't that what forums are for?True but after all the boasting it would make for an entertaining demo. 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 3, 2006 ya, well, he did mention the word Doomgod, he'll find out soon enough how right he was :) My comments are foolish, the very first comment on this thread was foolish, and made by a person who doesn't know anything about DM. Secondly, as I said, to know EVERYTHING about Map1, it'd be over 100 pages. There's a lot of theory you probably never even heard of, or even thought about for that matter. If you have Map1 memorized, maybe you wouldn't mind answering 2 simple questions for me. Player 1, has SSG only SSG and is in the hallways, Player 2 has SSG and BFG and is in the BFG room, what is player 2 best play, and generally is he going for a frag or a positional advantage? Let's see how much your "memorization" helps u. And ya sure, where can I find u for a game? Secondaly, u say you have doom2.exe, and u say it works, so I assume u have Windows98SE or lower, since DooM2.exe doesn't work in any other operating system. So if that's the case, we should play over Kahn. And also have a game over ZDooM. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 3, 2006 DevastatioN said:ya, well, he did mention the word Doomgod, he'll find out soon enough how right he was :) My comments are foolish, the very first comment on this thread was foolish, and made by a person who doesn't know anything about DM. Secondly, as I said, to know EVERYTHING about Map1, it'd be over 100 pages. There's a lot of theory you probably never even heard of, or even thought about for that matter. If you have Map1 memorized, maybe you wouldn't mind answering 2 simple questions for me. Player 1, has SSG only SSG and is in the hallways, Player 2 has SSG and BFG and is in the BFG room, what is player 2 best play, and generally is he going for a frag or a positional advantage? Let's see how much your "memorization" helps u. And ya sure, where can I find u for a game? Secondaly, u say you have doom2.exe, and u say it works, so I assume u have Windows98SE or lower, since DooM2.exe doesn't work in any other operating system. So if that's the case, we should play over Kahn. And also have a game over ZDooM. I have XP, but my system is crap, so it runs it (dont ask me how, dont ask me why, I'm just happy it does) Secondly, could you stop referring to me in the third person? It's annoying, it's rude, and it's stupid. Ok, to answer your hypothetical, if we assume that the SSG player is not in direct line of the BFG blast, he has a few choices (You could have picked a better hypothetical, this one has limitless choices based on playing style) Choice 1: He could race out into the opening room, hide behind a pillar as the other player either uses his BFG or gets closer and shotgun him. Choice 2: Same as above, but the player could peak out at intervals to sneak in shots. Choice 3: Player could wait out the fight, move to a number of other rooms, until the BFG player eventually comes looking for him, using a few traps (IE, standing near a doorway, etc.), he could kill the BFG player easily. Choice 4: Acquire a better weapon. And lastly, you are really quite full of yourself, I really have no interest in how good you are or say you are, ok, it's a bloody game, if you are "proud" of your achievements, I'd suggest getting out more, or joining the army. (DM over almost any of the large multiplayer clients would be very simple and probably the most reliable, Skulltag or Zdaemon both work for me) 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 3, 2006 Find me on ZDaemon. Thanks for your reply, your analysis is quite basic, and I said what is the best play, and yes, there actually is a dominant best play in that position that will get your a better position than your opponent. Oh, btw, just join ZDaemon and say your looking for Dev, someone may be able to get me. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 3, 2006 DevastatioN said:Find me on ZDaemon. Thanks for your reply, your analysis is quite basic, and I said what is the best play, and yes, there actually is a dominant best play in that position that will get your a better position than your opponent. Oh, btw, just join ZDaemon and say your looking for Dev, someone may be able to get me. Ok, cool, I'll redownload it real quick, unless you'd rather use skulltag. 0 Share this post Link to post
Mordeth Posted February 3, 2006 And of course they are going to DM on map01 again. Sigh :) 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 3, 2006 Naw, I have no need to beat him in Map1 or D5M1 50-15 or so, the guy doesn't know enough. So I'll play his game and play whatever map he wishes. It's not really my fault that the highest skilled players decide to play Map1 and D5M1 over other maps, but not many mappers seem to be able to create a good deathmatch balance in their maps. Most maps tend to be more open and less confining, so that players don't need good movement. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 3, 2006 DevastatioN said:Naw, I have no need to beat him in Map1 or D5M1 50-15 or so, the guy doesn't know enough. So I'll play his game and play whatever map he wishes. It's not really my fault that the highest skilled players decide to play Map1 and D5M1 over other maps, but not many mappers seem to be able to create a good deathmatch balance in their maps. Most maps tend to be more open and less confining, so that players don't need good movement. Hey, remember what I said about refering to me in the third person? It's REALLY getting old... As for the map, Zdaemon is being a shit on my computer, so skulltag will have to do. 0 Share this post Link to post
zap610 Posted February 4, 2006 I find it funny that someone who calls himself a "god" in a 10+ year old game acts like it is a huge accomplishment in life. But hey, thats just my opinion. 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 4, 2006 Find me in ZDaemon chat, and we'll go to skulltag, I need to find someone to host a server for whatever map you wish to play. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 4, 2006 DevastatioN said:Find me in ZDaemon chat, and we'll go to skulltag, I need to find someone to host a server for whatever map you wish to play. There are plenty already hosted, DM server 1 is fine with me. I dont need a one on one fight, personally, the more people, the better (and the more fun). (I'm not going to Zdaemon chat, Zdaemon doesnt work...why would I waste my time there? Why not just set up a time over a PM?) 0 Share this post Link to post
deathz0r Posted February 4, 2006 DevastatioN said:Being a good mapper and being a good deathmatcher don't go hand in hand in any kind of way. I dare you to say that to Anders or Toke! (and to a slightly lesser degree, Ralphis and myself) =P EDIT: Oh, and I should mention that I totally agree with Dev, but I will note that judas23_ is a kickass map. 0 Share this post Link to post
Jehar Posted February 4, 2006 I'm not taking any sides here, but a topic that started out as a discussion on gameplay balance, then shifting to the quality of map01 (d5 variety or not), then bounding right into cockfights is just... fundamentally wrong. So kick each others asses and get on with it. 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 4, 2006 1. Yes, ZDaemon does work for you, you were in that chat a few nights ago, you know what u did? u played [TC]Shakar, an average player, and got the snot kicked out of you extremely bad. 2. FFA is clearly not a skill balance in any kind of way, if you think your gonna prove to a person you know more than him by hiding from the best player and beating up on the little snots to get frags, your wrong. You can't frag me, you can frag others, retarded. 3. The 1on1 Standard in Skulltag is quite off by having a 10 frag limit, it's not accurate. Secondly, the only servers that are run in DooM settings is D5M1, which you've already stated to hate, and beating the snot out of you there is not really that promising. 4. Skulltag's demo support is less than ideal. Would you mind telling me how ZDaemon magically doesn't work after it did a few nights ago? Was it that getting owned by an average player opened your eyes as to what your gonna possibly get into by playing me? 0 Share this post Link to post
Nautilus Posted February 4, 2006 DevastatioN said:3. The 1on1 Standard in Skulltag is quite off by having a 10 frag limit, it's not accurate. Secondly, the only servers that are run in DooM settings is D5M1, which you've already stated to hate, and beating the snot out of you there is not really that promising. Just put up your own server, or have someone else do it, in order to have a server up with suitable settings. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 4, 2006 Yes, I did play a few nights ago! You're absolutely right, I did get the snot kicked out of me by that BFG lamer. I played a few more games, added a few wads to my Zdaemon folder, restarted my computer, and when I returned, it gave me an error message whenever I tried to get into a match. I uninstalled it, and dont intend to reinstall it. And lastly, what does beating me prove? I'm sure you will, and I've been sure since you challenged me, but does that mean anything? All it means is that you, someone who is obscenely obsessed with DMing on a 12 year old game can beat a Casual DMer. You really need to get out. For all intensive purposes, because I'm not wasting any more of my time with this shithole of a "discussion", you win. Yay! Let's throw a party, break out the chex mix! Happy? 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 4, 2006 Fine, I won't bother you until I see you post something else that is obscenely stupid. 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted February 4, 2006 Comiclez said: And lastly, what does beating me prove? I'm sure you will, and I've been sure since you challenged me, but does that mean anything? Yep, Dev's point was that your judgement of Map01 was based on a lack of skill and understanding of DM. All it means is that you, someone who is obscenely obsessed with DMing on a 12 year old game can beat a Casual DMer. You really need to get out.Eh? I probably spend more time than DevastatioN on DOOM related stuff and don't see the problem. Those posting here who do can go fuck themselves; the problem is theirs. 0 Share this post Link to post
pritch Posted February 4, 2006 I read what the author of this thread said about the rocket launcher being worthless and then that he played mostly in D5M1 and that alone is enough to convince me not to read another sentence. All I will say is if you don't like Doom multiplayer, bugger off, lots of people do like it so you won't be missed. 0 Share this post Link to post
Higher Game Posted February 4, 2006 You must have missed where I said the rocket launcher is good for spamming hallways in CTF. It's just a terrible weapon for deathmatches. It's more of a strategic weapon than anything else. Any kills by it are from luck. Every good Doom player plays D5M1. It's M1 except more complex and better. Normal map1 just has the nostalgia value. 0 Share this post Link to post
pritch Posted February 4, 2006 If you were truly a good d5m1 player, or had watched the very best in action, players like urhash, bones, dev and so on, you would know there is nothing lucky about the way they use the RL in that map. Both entrances to the inside areas are rocketed when the experienced player has calculated the opposing player is likely to have traversed the distance to emerge outside for an attack. It is one of the most impressive skills to pick up on d5m1 and the best players even know when and where certain other players are likely to emerge, based on what they know of them, and are able to disrupt their tactics with rockets, effectively forcing them to take another route, thereby controlling the play. How you have confused strategy with luck in this instance is beyond me, unless you're saying strategy has no place in deathmatch, which is just bizarre.. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 4, 2006 myk said:Yep, Dev's point was that your judgement of Map01 was based on a lack of skill and understanding of DM. Eh? I probably spend more time than DevastatioN on DOOM related stuff and don't see the problem. Those posting here who do can go fuck themselves; the problem is theirs. I was beaten by a BFG lamer, had it been a remotely fair match, there might be more to say. And I'm not saying Doom DM is bad, it's fun, but I think that if you base everything off Map01, it's foolish. 0 Share this post Link to post
DevastatioN Posted February 4, 2006 Well, in 1on1 BFG is fair since it's easily dodged. I agree with you Comiclez that everything SHOULDN'T be based off Map1, but Map1 teaches a lot of the useful skills in DooM overall, is all that I'm saying, Map1 is not a horrible map, overplayed? maybe. Higher Game seems to be thinking of weapons purely in their fragging sense, not their positional sense, Pritch already summed up how to use a rocket launcher to control the play and throw players off their game. DooM is psychological warfare, nuff said. 0 Share this post Link to post
Bank Posted February 4, 2006 DevastatioN said:Well, in 1on1 BFG is fair since it's easily dodged. I agree with you Comiclez that everything SHOULDN'T be based off Map1, but Map1 teaches a lot of the useful skills in DooM overall, is all that I'm saying, Map1 is not a horrible map, overplayed? maybe. Higher Game seems to be thinking of weapons purely in their fragging sense, not their positional sense, Pritch already summed up how to use a rocket launcher to control the play and throw players off their game. DooM is psychological warfare, nuff said. I think we finally agree on something, and I appreciate that. I can agree that map01 does teach you skills, but could a lot of other maps do the same, just different skills? (Hunter seeker, large areas, etc.) And yes, Map01 is not a terrible map, definitely overplayed, but one of the most memorable maps in the series. 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted February 5, 2006 Comiclez said: I was beaten by a BFG lamer, had it been a remotely fair match, there might be more to say. Ah, he's good with the BFG, splattering you around the map with it, so he's to be derided (in a forum where he likely doesn't even post)? Who's the fool now? 0 Share this post Link to post