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nightmare imp

Curious about lost souls...

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Why are they not counted in the kills count?Or are they?
I played a doom level, and I did not kill any monsters either then lost souls, and when the time came to 0%,
whats the deal?

-Nightmare imp

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I'm guessing because of Pain elementals. It would mean that if you killed 3 lost souls that a PE spat out, then the kills would go past 100. Just a guess though. :)

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Nah. Cos when an Arch-vile resurrects enough stuff and you kill them, your kills go past 100. And did anyone ever check out ther kills after the Icon Of Sin? :)

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I think I once got about 800000% on IoS...thats about 800 kills. Of corse I like to spend time on that level goofing off, so...

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i got something like 9998 on icon, but in original doom the game crashes too quick if u let it build up. usally get a visplane overflow or some other odd doom.exe error

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Sometimes I turn on God mode and run around and let them kill each other, if I'm bored enough. That really makes the kill count fly on Icon of Sin. Although sometimes those damn cubes hit me and I die anyway.

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Well, if you ask me, the Lost Souls aren't really made of flesh. They're made of ghostly energy, so you can't really kill them. Maybe id had this in mind when they were making the game. I've noticed they don't count as kills on Ultimate DOOM either (I pressed FHHALL, and everything EXCEPT the Lost Souls went down).

I dunno, it may be another reason.

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try it in a version of doom that came out before doom2 existed and see if lost souls count in that. I think it's kinda lame that arch-viles can revive monsters and you can kill them more than once to get kills over 100%.

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They do count in PSX custom Doom. I had my kill % on the Hangar at like 7657% once just killing everyhing that PE spat out. You can pin it, stand right in front of it and the souls it spits just die on you without doing you any harm. I got curious one day, set that up, and let it go for about an hour or so. It doesn;t do that in Psx Final Doom though. Anything a PE spits out isn't counted. I'm not entirly sure if the singular ones are though.

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Nihh. I never noticed that about Lost Souls except for on some versions and levels the Pain Elementals gag and don't spit any out.

I have noticed the aforementioned crash in Icon of Sin when you let the monsters kill each other for a while. However, I don't get a visplane error. My computer alternately freezes up, the video output gets distorted, and I have to manually kill the beast and reboot.

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Guest ZZ_TOPPER_X

"Stupid. Flies. On fire. 'Nuff said." --Doom manual

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Nihh. I never noticed that about Lost Souls except for on some versions and levels the Pain Elementals gag and don't spit any out.


There was a check built in to Doom. If there were already a certain number of lost souls on a map, a pain elemental would not be able to spawn any. This limit has been extended/removed in many source ports.

About counting for kills, I have a feeling that lost souls used to count for kills before doom2. I could be wrong, and I can't be bothered digging out my old doom floppies to check, but I had always assumed they didn't count for kills in doom2 because of the over over 100% problem.

Archies bringing things back that count as kills is a bit confusing/lame I suppose, but I'm guessing it has less impact on the overall figures than the PEs. I don't know about you, but when I find an archie, I'll do my damndest to kill him before he brings too many dead back. A pain elemental, however, will always bring a few lost souls into the game (ie 1-3 when you kill him) and if there are a few PEs in a room, quite a few souls will probably be spawned before you get a chance to kill all the elementals.

Of course, maybe they don't count because their souls are already "lost".

If they're lost, you can't count them. :-P

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Guest ZZ_TOPPER_X

Ya know, ya got a point.

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Ya know, ya got a point.


Everything I say has a point. Like for example when I say "I hate this thread" people agree. I love THIS thread, cause its a real question not like "Why are lost souls lost? I mean, where are they lost at?" and goofy shit like that...

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Guest ZZ_TOPPER_X

"Why are lost souls lost? I mean, where are they lost at?"

Thank you, JERRY SEINFELD. "I just gotta know!"

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"Why are lost souls lost? I mean, where are they lost at?"

Thank you, JERRY SEINFELD. "I just gotta know!"

Kramer: Tutututututut.
Jerry: What? You're cold?
Kramer: No... tutututututut.
George: The jitters? What?
Kramer: No... the Dominicans. They've gotten bored and have nothing to do. So, you know, I told them about Marxism, the worker's revolution. Well, they really got into it.
[Dominicans arguing fiercely]
Jerry: They look pretty upset about something.
Kramer: But Jerry, when the people get restless you do you think they come after? [high voice]EL PRESIDENTE!

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"Stupid. Flies. On fire. 'Nuff said." --Doom manual


Nooo it was :

"Dumb. Tough. Flies. On fire. 'Nuff said."

There. Now nobody can say I'm not a geek. :P

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Load up the DOOM EXE in DeHackEd and see if the Lost Souls count as kills. Since in the latest version of DOOM, since 1.666 the EXE was the same for DOOM1 and DOOM2, I assume they don't count as kills in DOOM1 also.

About the crashing problem with DOOM2 MAP30. I only experienced crashes if I loaded a saved game in that level. Then it could crash in seconds.

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Load up the DOOM EXE in DeHackEd and see if the Lost Souls count as kills. Since in the latest version of DOOM, since 1.666 the EXE was the same for DOOM1 and DOOM2, I assume they don't count as kills in DOOM1 also.


I wasn't so much wondering if doom & doom2 were the same as far as lost soul kills were concerned after the release of doom2. I knew that in either game they did not count as kills post doom2 release. I was more wondering about pre version 1.666.

So, I found my old (ver 1.1) disks and installed it. My version of dehacked can't cope with an EXE that old, so I idclev'd to map 3 9, remembered that idclip and idfa were not cheat codes in old doom1 games (eventually), and no-clipped to the area where the lost souls are hiding beside the rad suit and chain gun after you kill the cybie.

I made sure I walked round the outside of the map so that only the imps in the starting area were awake, and none of the monsters would be killing each other. I clipped in through the wall, killed the lost souls and went back the way I came. I exited the level having woken up no more monsters (IDDT twice confirmed only the imps in the start area were moving). On doing so, I was credited with 5% kills.

In other words, Lost Souls used to count as kills, but since the release of doom2, have not. It is reasonable to assume this is because of the Pain Elementals.

Case closed (hopefully). :-)

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another interesting thing, that may shed light on this question is check the ultimate dooms wad. I have found many doom2 spirits and textures in there. I have seen the boss cubes, db shotgun and serveral other things. Why did ID put doom2 things in the ultimat doom wad

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another interesting thing, that may shed light on this question is check the ultimate dooms wad. I have found many doom2 spirits and textures in there. I have seen the boss cubes, db shotgun and serveral other things. Why did ID put doom2 things in the ultimat doom wad


And on a related note, If you look inside the 1.1 Iwad, you will see a graphic or 2 that never made it into any released version of doom (a couple of different projectiles, and a few other minor things). I don't recall if these appeared in the Alpha's or not.

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Load up the DOOM EXE in DeHackEd and see if the Lost Souls count as kills. Since in the latest version of DOOM, since 1.666 the EXE was the same for DOOM1 and DOOM2, I assume they don't count as kills in DOOM1 also.


I wasn't so much wondering if doom & doom2 were the same as far as lost soul kills were concerned after the release of doom2. I knew that in either game they did not count as kills post doom2 release. I was more wondering about pre version 1.666.

So, I found my old (ver 1.1) disks and installed it. My version of dehacked can't cope with an EXE that old, so I idclev'd to map 3 9, remembered that idclip and idfa were not cheat codes in old doom1 games (eventually), and no-clipped to the area where the lost souls are hiding beside the rad suit and chain gun after you kill the cybie.

I made sure I walked round the outside of the map so that only the imps in the starting area were awake, and none of the monsters would be killing each other. I clipped in through the wall, killed the lost souls and went back the way I came. I exited the level having woken up no more monsters (IDDT twice confirmed only the imps in the start area were moving). On doing so, I was credited with 5% kills.

In other words, Lost Souls used to count as kills, but
since the release of doom2, have not. It is reasonable to assume this is because of the Pain Elementals.

Case closed (hopefully). :-)


Amen brother! That was what I needed to know.

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Enjay is right. Lost Souls did count before DOOM2. Verified by me using DOOM 1.2 EXE and DeHackEd 1.3.

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Looking in info.c from the doom source under the section for "MT_SKULL", we have:

MF_SOLID|MF_SHOOTABLE|MF_FLOAT|MF_NOGRAVITY, // flags

Now, these flags set certain properties for the object: MF_SOLID makes it solid, MF_SHOOTABLE makes it shootable, etc. To make it count for kills you need MF_COUNTKILL as well, for example, here are the flags for the hell knight and imp:

MF_SOLID|MF_SHOOTABLE|MF_COUNTKILL, // flags
MF_SOLID|MF_SHOOTABLE|MF_COUNTKILL, // flags

The lost soul doesnt have MF_COUNTKILL set, so it doesnt count in the kills total.

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BTW, has anyone ever seen a Pain Elemental being crushed?
Happened on Icarus Map20:War temple. A lift crushed it, there was a blood pool, and no lost souls appeared.

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Weren't there a couple of TeamTNT maps where a Pain Elemental could spawn Souls through a linedef? I understand one of the source ports prevented that behavior, and it kinda ruined the effect of the map.

The PEs were inside an in-accesable cage and spawned the Souls outside of the cage. It was kinda cool.

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Weren't there a couple of TeamTNT maps where a Pain Elemental could spawn Souls through a linedef? I understand one of the source ports prevented that behavior, and it kinda ruined the effect of the map.

The PEs were inside an in-accesable cage and spawned the Souls outside of the cage. It was kinda cool.


There are PE's in a cage in Doom2 map "spiritworld", but i think they couldn't spawn lost souls outside the cage.

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