Favorite Heretic/Hexen Game?

That's the thing. Raven Software focused more on the engine than gameplay and replay value. Of course, if it weren't for all their engine work the DOOM modding community may not be where it is today.

Still...

Heretic was really great. There was great music, visual style, and monster art. The items and weapons were fun to use. The hellstaff could use smaller projectiles and a faster rate of fire, maybe. I also felt that the game could have used a couple of hitscan monsters and another flying enemy. Unfortunately, there just didn't seem like a good tough monster like the Baron of Hell/Mancubus/Arachnotron to ramp up the difficulty. The game is stuck with slow Iron Liches and medium-tough Weredragons. Aside from my monster woes, I think there were plenty of nice fights and gameplay.

As for the items/artifacts: I felt the game was really too full of goodies (but they were FUN goodies, mind you). It seemed that if Raven found a bare corner in a room, they stuck a quartz flask in there or random ammunition for a powerful weapon. It got to the point where there was just too much 'stuff' in the rooms. Oh, and the texture selection is a damn shame. "Hmm... What should we put in this room...? I know! How about some stained glass windows!" But seriously, it's a fun game. Heretic follows the Doom formula so well it's hard not to like. It's probably my 2nd favorite with Doom at the top.

Hexen was cool. There were LOTS of decorations, items, monster designs, scripts, etc. There's plenty of bad, though. There definitely weren't enough weapons. And whenever I play, there's always several levels and situations where I wished the gameplay followed the Doom and Heretic formula. The centaurs really killed the gameplay, and the ettins were boring to fight. I really wish that some of the Hexen items were included in Heretic. :( Discs of repulsion were always lots of fun.

Haven't played Hexen 2 or Heretic 2 in a long time, so I can't comment too accurately on those.

TheCupboard said:

Discs of repulsion were always lots of fun.

Those were the best, really. "Oh great, another horde of ettins and centaurs, another tedious five minutes spent bashing weak monsters with too much hit points. Oh, but there's a bottomless pit and I have some spare discs of repulsion! Yay! Suddenly the map is fun again!"

They could also be used to cause infight amongst monsters by aiming carefully so that they'd be tossed on each others. And, of course, to repel projectiles, sometimes even back at the enemy that shot it.

But tossing monsters down chasms was really the best thing they could be used for.

myk said:

What StoneFrog said is proper.

The unregistered shareware had one episode, the registered shareware three, and the retail version five.

They were released as a free patch to the original 3 episode version.

Gez said:

But tossing monsters down chasms was really the best thing they could be used for.

I rarely use them for that. Depending on the map of course, if there's a lot of bottomless pits around I'll shove a horde down there if I get a good pack of them together. But generally I use them to get out of hairy situations. I love the sense of power they give me. Feeling like am actually wielding magic.

The centaurs and slaughtaurs are probably one of my favorite creatures in Hexen. Just bashing away at them will make them really boring to take down. But with a bit of ingenuity you can have a lot of fun taking them down.

I'm playing as Mage now for instance. The most efficient strategy against them is to use the Sapphire wand to "stun" them (make them go defensive). Then run up to them (I try to make at least two for each of these attacks) drop two flechettes. Run back and they'll stop protecting themselves, and the flechettes does the rest.

If there's just one, I usually just blast them with the lightning bolt.

Or you can shove them down a cliff, as you suggested.

Gez said:

another horde of ettins and centaurs, another tedious five minutes spent bashing weak monsters

The fifth skill levels makes them twice as fast moving, making them a slightly higher threat.

I find the Disc of Repulsion as a mind-controlling device really. Its main use for me is to disrupt monsters' behaviours.

kristus said:
They were released as a free patch to the original 3 episode version.

Yeah, allowing anyone who had registered the shareware to get the new stuff included in the retail version, just like for the DOOM expansion.

When there's a pack I usually can sync it up to hit one Centaur, then hit the next one and attack the third as the second goes defensive. Then the first one's shield will be down, I'll attack him, then the second's will go down, etc.

The main annoyance is in cramped hallways when you face one at a time.

I was going to say, I don't think those walk-a-lot's really pose any significant hassle, but then I remember there's people who don't play as the fighter all the time. Personally I found the entire game to be too much of a hassle with the cleric or mage, let alone any specific enemies.

Quasar said:

Also, the Heresiarch should be Korax :P

Definitely. I always thought Korax was a disappointment. I though D'sparil was really cool, as was the Heresiarch, but Korax just looks like a bad Alien ripp-off.

People like to complain about Hexen's lack of weapons. While I wouldn't have minded a Tome of Power in Hexen. I think it got some of the most gratifying weapons I've ever used. But it's in part because I love the idea behind the weapons. The battle axe, the Mage and Cleric using their hands to cast spells. Really cool stuff.
And someone claimed that the weaker weapons got useless at the end. That's just silly. The Mana system is quite nice actually. it gives you an excuse to use your biggest weapon more often, since you're burning the same ammo anyway. So if you got a room full of enemies, you can go for the big guns w/o feeling you're wasting it.
(The "I may need it later" mentality is happily avoided)

And those of you who hate the Centaurs and Slaughtaurs for shielding from your attacks. You need to explore the possibilities of the inventory system in Hexen better.

I think Korax owns the Heresiarch, but I guess I'm in the minority. Korax is my favorite out of the three Serpent Riders, although I do agree his design is highly derivative of H.R. Giger's Alien.

Well, this thread has motivated me to pop Heretic II into my PC and finally finish it. I'm on the third section now (the hive). The game camera gives me a headache at times, but it's still a pretty fun game.

I'm very conservative with ammo, so Hexen's weapons system never bothered me. 99% of the time I play Doom, it's with a shotgun or chaingun. Heretic was similar with the crossbow and dragon claw, though the hellstaff does get some use too. I think Kristus said it best, Hexen's weapons are the most satisfying to use of any game on a weapon-per-weapon comparison basis. I never felt the fighter needed more than the axe and hammer for the majority of the game, with the occasional quietus blast to even out a horde. The game plays perfect like that, and I think adding more would throw off the balance.

Also, I think Korax was a good boss in terms of capability. The problem is that his hitpoints are so low that he can be killed before he gets to use even half his attacks. If you just let him wander, he does some pretty cool stuff, like warping the floors into lava pits, raising impalement spikes under your main path, summoning/releasing monsters, calling down those face-in-the-wall attack units to spray fireballs around, along with all his regular attacks. But any experienced player can shut him down before he ever uses any of that.

Y'know it seems like many Doom modders find Heretic and Hexen useful for ripping sprites,textures,flats or sounds from for use in their own projects.

Necros20 said:

Y'know it seems like many Doom modders find Heretic and Hexen useful for ripping sprites,textures,flats or sounds from for use in their own projects.

Doom modders find any sector-based first person shooter useful for ripping content for their own projects.
Kinda sad though, since the spriting skills of most are to the extent of pasting together frankensteined weapons from other games and megaman/tails recolors.

Korax perhaps needs a hard-coded resistance to the ultimate class weapons more than he needs more HP, I think. The main problem is that Wraithverge tears him a new one as he just stands there helpless. Even the "young, inexperienced" D'Sparil could teleport away and escape the damage of Corvus's projectiles at random..

MmM said:

I think Korax owns the Heresiarch, but I guess I'm in the minority. Korax is my favorite out of the three Serpent Riders, although I do agree his design is highly derivative of H.R. Giger's Alien.

It's a bit sad that he doesn't look like himself.

MmM said:

Well, this thread has motivated me to pop Heretic II into my PC and finally finish it. I'm on the third section now (the hive). The game camera gives me a headache at times, but it's still a pretty fun game.

Heretic II is fun, but a bit short and the ending was disappointing I thought. (Rot13 spoiler: Lbh pna'g qrsrng gur ivyynva bs gur fgbel, lbh unir gb uryc uvz orpbzr n tbq naq vg pherf uvz bs uvf znqarff. Gnyx nobhg n xnezn Ubhqvav!)

Heretic II's ending is clearly not a case of karma houdini. The game all along asks the question of why in the first place a Seraph would ever be doing anything evil. They're supposed to be beings of light and goodness, evidently. For it to have ended any other way would have made less sense and wouldn't have answered the question raised in the plot, leaving it a loose end.

Also the game doesn't bother to explain it in explicit terms, but it's pretty clear that Morcalavin has fallen under D'Sparil's lingering influence - using the symbol of the Trident for his own troops, as well as attacking Corvus whilst appearing much like and attacking in an extremely similar manner to D'Sparil - I think even the voice actor is the same.

D'Sparil must have created the false tome for just a situation like this, and thus it contained some part of his power or even part of his demonic soul.

Also are spoiler protections really necessary for a game that ancient?

Quasar said:

it's pretty clear that Morcalavin has fallen under D'Sparil's lingering influence - using the symbol of the Trident for his own troops

The various Seraph shrines that dot the landscape -- throwback to a time before the arrival of D'Sparil -- are trident-shaped as well. And there are four tridents in the corners of the Tome of Power's cover. I think the trident is merely a symbol of magical might in the Heretic/Hexen universe. Giving it a lot of appeal for all magical dictators.

Quasar said:

Also are spoiler protections really necessary for a game that ancient?

MmM specifically said he never finished it before...

Heretic - I like it. But the bad thing is a "Medieval Clon of Doom". Yes... That is the point i hated everytime for that game.

Hexen - "The way is supposed to be Heretic" if i'm bad. Hexen is the Excellent Sequel. Haves tricky Puzzles, is not a lineal game and its hard. I stucked on Seven Portal like a 1 week, for finding the Steel Key.

Heretic II - Never Played

Hexen II - I only played the Demo, and i can say is good. Hehe.

I loved Korax's appearance in the flaming portals and wall murals. His sprite was ugly.

I agree that he should've been given resistance to our best weapon. I Wraithverge'd him with a few shots, no major prolems.

Also my rule for when I used my weapons (Cleric) was:
Mace: Only when out of mana or on droves of ettins (if I have to conserve mana).

Serpent Staff: Primary weapon up until Seminary where green mana becomes more common. I rarely used it on Centaur (using flechettes and the mace and other artifacts pre-weapons 3 and 4) because it'd ricochet and hurt meh. :(

Fire Bolts: Used on all enemies save for Afrits (hard to aim at them), Ettins, and the swamp monsters (I always found stealing their life via the Serpent Staff the easiest way to kill them).

Wraithverge: Bosses only, and, when I'm bad tempered, I use it on hordes of Centaur. After going through most of the game putting up with those stupid shields, it was fun to watch my ghosts totally rip and tear and destroy and downright rape those #$*($#%%#ing droves of shield whoring weakling #$%*(%#&*$#&s.

I felt D'Sparil had the most "epic" battle, mostly because of the music and his backwards voice. Eidolon comes in second just because of the variety, and it's amazing how powerful he is (can kill you in a few hits).

I kind of have a feeling the Heresiarch was supposed to be Korax at first. But for whatever reason he was bumped down.

I think Heresiarch was meant for the first game, but didn't make the cut in the Holiday 1994 release schedule. Otherwise Heretic wouldn't make it in time and be a mid-1995 release, and Hexen would also be delayed.

My theory.

Well the end of Heretic shows that creepy red demon guy.

It's implied that it's one of the older Serpent Riders. It could be Eidolon (though the "final" Eidolon design was more like the Baron of Hell than a skeletal thing).

Possibly Korax was indeed meant to be the Heresiarch, and that Korax was to be the one watching Corvus at the end of the game and not Eidolon.

There's also textures in Heretic/Hexen of "saints" which look like the Heresiarch. Unless Raven felt he was way better than Korax to begin with, it's a safe bet he was meant to be Korax.

Korax's fight was less of a fight and more of a "behold the awesome engine capabilities! OOOH! A MOVING BRIDGE!".

The heresiarch's fight wasn't very exciting either though. You mostly wait for him to drop his shield so you can hurt him. Unless you're Cleric of course where you can just spam him with Flechettes.

Korax and the Heresiarch's fights together as one would have been better.

Korax went down easy, but the Heresiarch's attacks were pretty inefficient.

I had to finish the second fight with the Mace because I was out of mana. :(

Flechette spamming isn't fun though. It's like vs Centaur - they say it's great at killing them, it's not. They are like in a permanent shield stance whilst in the cloud and that noise drives me INSANE.

Running out of mana? In Hexen?

Did you remember to use your Kraters?

Gez said:

The various Seraph shrines that dot the landscape -- throwback to a time before the arrival of D'Sparil -- are trident-shaped as well. And there are four tridents in the corners of the Tome of Power's cover. I think the trident is merely a symbol of magical might in the Heretic/Hexen universe. Giving it a lot of appeal for all magical dictators.

The shrines don't really make sense with the Heretic story, however. The Heretic story specifically identifies the Order of the Trident with the worship of the Serpent Riders on Parthoris, and it is their symbol because of their status as an unholy trinity. Korax also used this symbol on Cronos, and Eidolon used a sort of inverted variant of it, with the cross extended to end in an additional downward-pointing arrow. This perhaps could be meant to emphasize that he was the eldest and also the last of the Serpent Riders.

Maybe the shrines were modified by D'Sparil's minions during the occupation period to try to corrupt their power? Idle speculation at any rate. What's certain is that the Seraphs wouldn't want to willingly associate themselves with the evil of the Serpent Riders. It would be like angels going around drawing inverted pentagrams.

It's pretty clear that the exact meaning of the trident symbol was never set in stone, or if it was, this was forgotten by the time Heretic 2 entered production. The tridents appear as a symbol in Heretic 2 not because of a common plot thread but because the game makers associated the trident symbol with the Heretic name and wanted to use it some more. Rule of cool.

Perhaps there is actually some consistent explanation which can be guessed at, but the tvtropes wiki has made it hard for me to think of corporate fiction as anything other than manufactured. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy game stories; I just don't take them very seriously.

Yeah, I'd say it's just for styling or consistency, to give the player a general impression of being in a specific fantasy setting. With the coming and going of company members and employees a loss of consistency in the usage of designs and symbols in later games is not surprising.

I'd say the original HeXen has the darkest feel of all the games. Heretic was comparatively lighter, while HeXen 2 was how HEXEN would feel being lighter, like Heretic. Heretic 2 is how Heretic would be 'darker.' As always, look to the cookie.

I liked the pickup sounds from the original HeXen the best, and some of the artifacts. I wish there was more of the same. Hell, I'll go and make some!

Hexen II had some dark moments. The abandoned King's Court, the dungeons underneath the guillotine in Blackmarsh...

Never played Heretic II.

CodenniumRed said:

I liked the pickup sounds from the original HeXen the best, and some of the artifacts. I wish there was more of the same. Hell, I'll go and make some!

Corvus' snooty vengeful elf laugh FTW!