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Devalaous

Doom II XBLA Now Released!

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Is MAP05 flipping us off?

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I spent ALL NIGHT last night trying to beat the new episode, twas a very hard effort, even on Hurt Me Plenty.
In my honest opinion, this new episode is harder then Alien Vendetta.

I'll probably go back to it some other time on UV, but for right now, I'm just going to relax.

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So is there any way to obtain XBLA version of Doom II legally for those who just didn't have damn console?

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aleksej said:

So is there any way to obtain XBLA version of Doom II legally for those who just didn't have damn console?


Nope. Even if you own an XBOX360 and extract it yourself for your sole private use, you'll probably be breaking like a dozen or so DMCA articles.

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Maes said:

Nope. Even if you own an XBOX360 and extract it yourself for your sole private use, you'll probably be breaking like a dozen or so DMCA articles.

Only if the method of doing this is a circumvention of some type. As far as I can tell the data is not encrypted or protected in any way, and therefore it is not a circumvention to simply copy it and chop out parts of the file.

This is fair use, and for now (until ACTA at least), it is still legal to do it for your own personal use. Look at how corporations have already succeeded in making people question their own rights. It's ridiculous. We're just a tiny step away from losing them altogether.

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DoomHero85 said:

It probably isn't possible, but I think releasing some of the more insanely hard maps here on doomworld on xbox would be funny. Let's see someone beat HR map 24 with a controller, lolz.


i find a controller about 50 times easier for doom. cause its so much easier to strafe and turn with joysticks than a keyboard (although mouse and keyboard works on source ports, on the original using a keyboard was annoying as hell)


360 controller is perfect for doom in my eyes hence why i use it.

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cybdmn said:

Sorry man, you hide this really well. Maybe, if there where no way of getting the map into your pc to investigating, it would have taken a long time, before someone find that. It is not an easy find without Doom Builder.

http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/MAP01:_The_Earth_Base_%28No_Rest_for_the_Living%29#Other_points_of_interest

You know it's visible on the automap right? :P No extracting or Doom Buildering necessary.

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Quasar said:

Only if the method of doing this is a circumvention of some type. As far as I can tell the data is not encrypted or protected in any way, and therefore it is not a circumvention to simply copy it and chop out parts of the file


Well...the extractor programs aren't exactly officially sanctioned Microsoft software, and whoever made them must use some previous knowledge of the LIVE container format, which AFAIK is not public domain, even if it's trivial and unencrypted. So placing the line of "circumvention" is a kind of grey area. Where is myk when you need him? :-p

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Maes said:

Well...the extractor programs aren't exactly officially sanctioned Microsoft software, and whoever made them must use some previous knowledge of the LIVE container format, which AFAIK is not public domain, even if it's trivial and unencrypted. So placing the line of "circumvention" is a kind of grey area. Where is myk when you need him? :-p

The file format is really very obvious. It was reverse-engineered. The only thing complicated is the hash data that's strewn through it every 0xAA blocks and is not accounted for in the file's count of blocks. That stuff is there for data verification purposes, and is not cryptographic.

Reverse engineering alone is not circumvention. You can't claim that something that is simply obscure is copy-protected, I've never heard of that surviving in court. The DMCA does define what is considered protection measure.

Now if you want to talk about patent violations, it's pretty likely that MS owns some patents on the STFS that is used in LIVE files. However, that's an issue they'd have to take up with the guys who wrote the code that reads them (the LeFluffie library, mainly).

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Quasar said:

You know it's visible on the automap right? :P No extracting or Doom Buildering necessary.


Yes, i know. But see it actually darkened on the floor is by far harder to figure out.

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xttl said:
Also, in all the videos I've seen it appears that the SSG sounds come out too slowly. They're IIRC the only sounds in Doom II that are 22050Hz instead of 11025Hz (well, maybe some of the new for Doom II monsters had 22.05kHz sfx too, I'm not 100% sure) and obviously the engine plays them as their sample rate was 11025Hz.

The loading sounds for the SSG and the item spawn flash use 22050 Hz.

Even some PC Doom ports have had this problem (and the sndserv kludge official Unix ports used a long time ago too) but I think it's inexcusable in a commercial port to be this sloppy. :-( If they want people to pay for games which are soon 20 years old, they should at least pay a little more attention to detail...

Yeah, DOSDoom and its direct modifications have the issue. It's curious that this bug is present, because Doom95, made by Microsoft, does not have it. Maybe they used source code from id Software and not the Doom95 sources. In any case, they wrote custom sound code and didn't notice the original engine was made to play sounds at their physical frequency.

Bozzy said:
(although mouse and keyboard works on source ports, on the original using a keyboard was annoying as hell)

Maybe if you stuck to the default arrow keys, but the Setup application allows you to change them.

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cybdmn said:

Yes, i know. But see it actually darkened on the floor is by far harder to figure out.


On the 360 it shouldn't be visible unless you flip the switch. hmmm
Honestly I didn't think this would end up being so easily ripped from the 360.. o.O

I am not in any way condoning this btw. Just saying ;P

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myk said:
Maybe they used source code from id Software and not the Doom95 sources. In any case, they wrote custom sound code and didn't notice the original engine was made to play sounds at their physical frequency.


I actually suspect it is based on the public doomsrc.zip release. :-)
I also suspect this is the case for the Xbox1 Doom & Doom 2 ports (those included in Doom 3 Collector's Edition). Maybe the Xbox 360 versions were based on those?

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TheCastle said:

Honestly I didn't think this would end up being so easily ripped from the 360.. o.O

I am not in any way condoning this btw. Just saying ;P

Hopefully you don't get the wrong impression. We're not supporting any warez activities, and we have already banned people who tried to distribute the file. We want to support the work you guys have done as much as possible.

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Quasar said:

We want to support the work you guys have done as much as possible.


That reminds me, how did they build the new episode in the first place?

With Doom Builder? Or some other program?

I think I remember asking on another thread but I not got any replies.

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@TheCastle: Any thoughts about making more maps, but maybe releasing them here at doomworld, since the general consensus is that you are good at mapping?

Still haven't gotten a chance to try the new episode. Need to locate an xbox 360 with live.

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Gez said:

The cross is a +, not a †, so it's not a religious symbol. That'd be like being offended by a calculator.


There are many variations of the Christian cross and a lot of not-so-picky detractors. Try explaining them that.

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Holy shit, I just want to say, that this is an absolutely amazing map pack. If you guys released a DLC pack or something, I would be more than happy to pay for it!

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Bozzy said:

(although mouse and keyboard works on source ports, on the original using a keyboard was annoying as hell)

The original DOS exes support using the mouse. Even Doom95 did on 9x systems.

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hardcore_gamer said:

That reminds me, how did they build the new episode in the first place?

With Doom Builder? Or some other program?

I think I remember asking on another thread but I not got any replies.

I hope they got to use Doom Builder and not like some new version of DoomEd, because compared to the former, the latter was super-impoverished ;)

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hardcore_gamer said:

With Doom Builder? Or some other program?


I asked this question. I haven't actually checked to confirm but based on what I've been told by those who have checked, Supposedly each map has a 3d mode start somewhere in it so it would have to have been Doombuilder or Doombuilder 2. I'm suspecting the former.

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Maes said:

Nope. Even if you own an XBOX360 and extract it yourself for your sole private use, you'll probably be breaking like a dozen or so DMCA articles.

Legally, you can do anything you want with files in your possession. It only gets illegal when you go and distribute or acquire them without consent from the creator/copyright holder.

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kristus said:

Legally, you can do anything you want with files in your possession. It only gets illegal when you go and distribute or acquire them without consent from the creator/copyright holder.


I am reasonably certain that this isn't true in all cases.

I think a lot of people forget that in the modern world of complicated electronics, buying something doesn't automatically mean you can do whatever you want with it.

Lets take modded consoles as a example, they are yours and you have already paid for them legally. And yet MS will instantly ban all modded consoles from Xbox live and remove the warranty. This is also the case with allot of products besides gaming consoles.

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hardcore_gamer said:

Lets take modded consoles as a example, they are yours and you have already paid for them legally. And yet MS will instantly ban all modded consoles from Xbox live and remove the warranty. This is also the case with allot of products besides gaming consoles.

Yes although in this instance it is a matter of EULA and not legality. MS isn't obligated to support modified hardware or software under their agreement with the end user for use of their online services. However they can't (yet at least) have you arrested or sue you just for modding your console.

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I don't know enough about Modded consoles and XBLA to have any opinion about that matter. It's possible they are concerned about hacks and the likes. But modded consoles aren't comparable to mucking around with files in your lonesome.

Besides. They aren't taking you to court for modding your console. They are banning you from a service they provide. It's a difference. They can do that simply because they say they can do that in the agreement.

Just like Doomworld can ban people who don't follow their rules from the forums.

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Has anybody else had problems achieving 100% secrets on MAP04? I spent an hour humping all walls and stepping in every sector, even normally unreachable ones, and I only achieved 9/10. I wonder if there might be a glitch with a floor-change action type or something that causes this secret to disappear if you don't step into it in time.

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I found all the secrets in all the maps.

Here's a video walkthrough (made by someone who didn't bother setting the correct musics in the MAPINFO):

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Quasar said:

Has anybody else had problems achieving 100% secrets on MAP04? I spent an hour humping all walls and stepping in every sector, even normally unreachable ones, and I only achieved 9/10. I wonder if there might be a glitch with a floor-change action type or something that causes this secret to disappear if you don't step into it in time.


It's a mapping bug/oversight. See this and this.

EDIT: Btw. the "GUS emulator" everyone is talking about is TiMidity. I just hope it's not TiMidity++ which AFAIK is only licensed under the GNU GPL!

2nd edit: I also have to wonder did they really get a license for the official Gravis GUS patch set. :-)

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