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Katamori

Do you like Final Doom?

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I only actually started playing TNT today in all the years I could have played it since I did back in 1995...

I find it hard as hell I've died plenty of times on Human BBQ already, and being a mapper I can say I have already expected a shed load of suprises.

I have to say I like it so far, the maps are ok and to be fair the gameplay is good and on UV it is a hell of a challenge. That's what you need these days after we've played them over and over again, a bit of a toughie.

EDIT:

Telefragging Barons of hell, yeah that was a suprise. *Dies*

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Alphawolf, If you have trouble finding the secret exit in MAP15, click this:

Spoiler

The secret exit on "The Dead Zone" is in a secret. You'd probably never catch it considering there's no hints. Not even a misalignment.

I can't believe such a magnificent map was hidden in such a shoddy way.

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Alphawolf said:

I only actually started playing TNT today in all the years I could have played it since I did back in 1995...

I find it hard as hell I've died plenty of times on Human BBQ already, and being a mapper I can say I have already expected a shed load of suprises.


MAP02 is actually one of the hardest TNT maps, so don't think that it shows the rest of the WAD's difficultly. The difficult levels in TNT are pretty evenly spread out, that is up until MAP25 where you get a streak of hard levels up until the end (With the exception of MAP29)

However Plutionia starts right where the difficulty in TNT left off, and MAP01 is harder than most of TNT.

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Katamori said:
Do you agree with him? Becasue I think, these things don't make Final Doom bad.

The general "it's for DOOM fans" seems rather accurate. It also seems clear that he's reviewing as a general game player and not a "DOOM fan," hence what he says makes sense to me. Things must be read with context and perspective in mind.

Personally, Final DOOM is a couple of "PWADs". Plutonia is excellent for extending DOOM II style play, TNT is good as a community effort. Agreeing with what that guy said, had any of the two been the official (DOOM II) IWAD, I would have been disappointed. As far as style is concerned, Plutonia is too reiterative and vague while TNT is too eclectic, seems rather derivative and is sometimes plain ugly (some graphics are almost "Paint" quality). Their gameplay is too harsh and extended for a game meant to be played by head to toe smoothly.

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I have to agree with those that call Final DOOM "what DOOM2 should have been". In fact, I played DOOM2 after Final DOOM - I bought FD first, thinking it was an updated/expanded version of DOOM2, like Ultimate DOOM was an updated and expanded version of DOOM - and still remember the disappointment.

Alphawolf said:

I only actually started playing TNT today in all the years I could have played it since I did back in 1995...

You couldn't have played TNT in 1995 unless you had been part of Team TNT. Final DOOM was released in summer 1996. :)

Alphawolf said:

Telefragging Barons of hell, yeah that was a suprise.

On TNT MAP02 it's Hell Knights you to telefrag, although you can telefrag one Baron (in the secret room behind the blue-key door) if you manage to lure it into the teleporter.

Marcaek said:

Alphawolf, If you have trouble finding the secret exit in MAP15, click this:

I'm afraid I'll have to expose your spoiler since it's incorrect.

Marcaek said:

The secret exit on "The Dead Zone" is in a secret. You'd probably never catch it considering there's no hints. Not even a misalignment.


Here is the proper spoiler:

Spoiler

There are two hidden doors to the secret exit. The first door is a misaligned wall texture (BROWN1 vertically offset by 8 units, to be exact) and there's a little bloody puddle stuck under the second door.

True, the area is pretty dark and the hints are subtle; however, finding a secret level was never meant to be easy.

Processingcontrol said:

MAP02 is actually one of the hardest TNT maps, so don't think that it shows the rest of the WAD's difficultly. The difficult levels in TNT are pretty evenly spread out, that is up until MAP25 where you get a streak of hard levels up until the end (With the exception of MAP29)

I'll agree with you on MAP02, it is kind of a pain, but mostly from a speedrunner's point of view. There are a couple jumps there that can easily fail when least expected. Other than that, it's not a hard map. And I wouldn't call maps 25-30 a hard streak. The hard maps are 20, 21 and 27, the last being the hardest by far. You can take my word for it - few people in the world have played TNT as much as yours truly. ;)

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Dead Zone is great. D:

At any rate, this thread has reminded me that I need to finish putting together tntlite.wad -- some maps are great while others make me question the author's frequency of soberness.

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Deadzone is misaligned textures galore but the overall shape of the map and the rooms are very unique to many other Doom maps. You rarely see any modern maps have such abstract shaped rooms.

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40oz said:

DYou rarely see any modern maps have such abstract shaped rooms.


Sad, but true. Gotta love how a few abstract shapes can make a room a lot more interesting than a "well" detailed rectangle.

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DeathevokatioN said:

Sad, but true. Gotta love how a few abstract shapes can make a room a lot more interesting than a "well" detailed rectangle.


About time you start playing some Evilution, dude!

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Dead Zone would have worked better for me if it had been a bit more focused, I think. It's so open and non-linear that it probably works best as a DM map (and has several additions that reinforce this idea for me). Finding the secrets in that map is a fun little distraction though. Something that made the map a little more obvious to progress through would have been great. Probably the closest any of TNT comes to the E1 ideal though.

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The main problem with original Doom II was that sometimes people think it's just thrown together as there isn't any further detail in most of the maps and the aesthetics has terrible solutions (e.g. misaligned SUPPORT on a 16-units wide sidedef, a lower texture not being in harmony with the floor which it edges, etc.), but they also forget that Final Doom suffers from gameplay issues as well. Plutonia is valinly well-detailed and -decorated unless it has a gameplay definitely not compatible with "pussy-doomers". TNT is still another problem with his appearing littler-bigger bugs. I must admit that the better a work is, the higher the rate of appearing bugs is. It's all the reason for why people don't like Final Doom.

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Never_Again, you didn't HAVE to expose said spoiler.

And I stand by my statement that the secret exit was done poorly.

Dead Zone and Habitat are 2 maps that had a bit of potential but ended up being hideous and cluttered(DZ), or completely forgettable(Habitat).

OTOH Plutonia was excellent all the way through.

@Dark Claw:

it's also impossible without cheats (literally), what the hell?


What do you mean by this? TNT is beatable without cheating.

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DeathevokatioN said:

Sad, but true. Gotta love how a few abstract shapes can make a room a lot more interesting than a "well" detailed rectangle.

This is why it is fun to turn, "Snap To Grid" off. :)

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Just played Evilution map01-map13. Damn, so cool. Nostalgia for the win!
Hitscanner hell in some of the maps though :P I know Plutonia is known for its devious traps and chaingunners, but some of the traps in Evilution = wtf? Couple of things though: they are almost always survivable on first try, and they are kinda easy to predict at times.

Have to mention that I ran through the maps fast as hell though; straight into rooms and stuff. No peeking and hiding behind corners!
Very much fun!

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I tend to play TNT a lot more often than Plutonia, but I love them both equally. Con wise, difficulty in Plutonia can slow some maps down, like The Twilight, and TNT has some annoying maps ala Administration Center. I'd rate both IWADs 9/10.

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In short: No.

To me, Final Doom has always felt too amateurish and far less inspiring than the work id Software did on Doom and Doom 2.

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Plutonia was overall the best-designed Doom IWAD. TNT had some good maps (like MAP09) and some terrible ones (like MAP16), so it was really a mishmash of zooming through bad levels to get to the good ones. TNT had some pretty good music, though.

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Wagi said:

Plutonia was overall the best-designed Doom IWAD.

Okay

Wagi said:

TNT had some good maps (like MAP09)


Okay

Wagi said:

and some terrible ones

Okay

Wagi said:

(like MAP16)

HELL NO!!!
That map Kicks Ass and is one of the best levels in the IWAD!!!

Wagi said:

TNT had some pretty good music, though.

Okay

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The "critic" Katamori knows said:
- dumb level names (Odyessy of Noises)


He appears to be grasping at straws here, not to mention making himself look uneducated. Lousy critic is lousy, Final Doom rules, 'nuff said.

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Final Doom is awesome. TNT was kind of average on the whole shot, but there were some really neat maps in there (MAP06, MAP18, etc.). Plutonia is one of my favoritest mapsets ever. End of story.

Also, Doom 2 rules.

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I like Final Doom. It's probably the one I played the most when I was a kid, next to the original Doom, of course. There definitely is some filler, but I think between both "episodes" there are around 30 really good maps.

I just finished playing Plutonia for the first time in years. I forgot how challenging it is at times. I've never been able to beat map 30 with no cheats...I've seen demos, so I know it's possible, but jeez that map is crazy. I remember as a kid, I preferred Evilution, because I was really into the futuristic techbase maps, and it was also something I could beat with no cheat codes. I think I gained more appreciation for Plutonia this time around; very few of the maps are actually bad, and maps like Speed, Compound, Tombstone, and Anti-Christ are just excellent.

It's been a while since I played Evilution, but I remember really liking Wormhole, Lunar Mining Project, Ballistyx, Heck, and Nukage Processing.

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Ive been reading what everyone thinks about final doom. While I agree with some of you. I personally thought plutonia was 10x better than evilution. But I also see alot of people not really answering the "Did you like Final Doom?" Question. Its being more compared to Doom 1 and 2. Plus The Final Doom maps have different authors than Doom 1 and Doom 2 did, meaning they have a different style, feel and overall new story (which i also agree was incoherent) but thats not the point. We werent thinking about "the story" years ago. New doom Levels! Thats all I cared about. Granted some levels just blew ass. But still. It was new levels...

Final doom kicked ass. More levels. Longer levels. Harder Labyrinths. But I hate that the Icon of sin appeared in both episodes.

I give it a 9/10

edit: I forgot to add, TNT had better music.

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I don't "hate" any of the Doom iwads, but Evilution is mediocre in my opinion.

As somebody who likes a challenge though, Plutonia was awesome and fun for me on Ultra-Violence.

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Also, I never knew Final Doom was two games in one until late 2009 when I first played it. I really love those kind of games (like Super Mario All-Stars). The Plutonia Experiment is my favorite alongside Doom II, TNT is a keeper as well.

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I thought the final dooms where pretty decent as a whole. new levels to play through, sweet new themes for levels and some of them where massive compared to doom 2s levels. defintly for people who are experianced with doom though for sure. Not many newbies would find them as fun I guess. talking about new features though there wasn't really much difference between doom 1 to doom 2?

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Marnetmar said:

Final Doom would be great if half of the maps weren't so badly designed.


The Plutonia maps I thought were very well crafted and designed. It's my favorite of the two FDoom wads.

TNT had very confusing level design and layouts, and bored me to the utter death.

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The only thing really sucks in Final Doom IMO is that they both kept MAP23 music the original, which is a terrible feature because of it being a "joke" level and a "joke" soundtrack it having. I don't know whether they were dumb enough to realise this, but I would say they just didn't know what to put under "Tombstone" and "Lunar Mining Project".

Plutonia doesn't have replaced soundtracks between MAP22 and MAP26, however. [I do hate HR's solution with this between MAP20 and MAP26 as well, because that line of maps feature the dullest soundtracks ever in the entire "IWAD union PWAD" collection.]

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