TNT Map 22: Habitat - Why the dislike?

The maze, the fact you have to trigger walk over linedefs in order to proceed to new areas of the maze, which from my own experience were very easy to skip over leading to 5-10 minutes of pure annoyance. The rest of the map is ok I guess. The red skull key secret was a nice touch, except the door containing the megasphere is right at the end, so completely pointless for speedrunning :P

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I don't think it's a particularly bad map, it just seems sketchy and unfinished. For instance, Administration Centre is much worse, although I like its final area.

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Jaysap said:
What makes it worse than some of the others?

Not some, all of them. Its maxed out lighting in certain areas, the overuse of platforms which can break vanilla, crappy combinations of liquid flats, the generally boring open areas and combat, the maze which uses steps on the sides instead of having a relatively flat floor ("over-detailing" at its best), and an all-out ugliness stemming from some of the above plus a few other details.

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The layout is bizzare- it goes from narrow tunnels to wide open spaces. boring battles and pointless uninteresting secrets.

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It's one of the maps I really enjoy because of the mixed styles and textures. Also those open, green areas look great, and so did one of the secrets (can't remember which, but it involved pinkies and the color blue). I think there are much worse maps in TNT, such as map07 (especially the area with the cages), and Baron's lair (I think it was called). There was also one with some mines and a lot of lava that was pretty horrible.
EDIT:As someone else has said, Administration Centre is also pretty damn bad.

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Because it's boring. But to be honest I'll defend Habitat. Mount Pain is a far worse map. Over 50% of the map is 64 wide tunnels.

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Tarnsman said:

Because it's boring. But to be honest I'll defend Habitat. Mount Pain is a far worse map. Over 50% of the map is 64 wide tunnels.

Not to mention that crappy brown texture in the tunnels.

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I always remember Mount Pain favourably because I really like the music. The mountain of teleporting Lost Souls made for a nice visual when I was younger too... But it is a crap map, as are a surprisingly large number of Evilution maps IIRC.

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Phobus said:

I always remember Mount Pain favourably because I really like the music. The mountain of teleporting Lost Souls made for a nice visual when I was younger too... But it is a crap map, as are a surprisingly large number of Evilution maps IIRC.

Map21-Map27 is the only truly intolerable stretch of maps in the IWAD, I think. Map08 is a complete shit and Map11 is really really lame, as well.

Nothing holds a candle to Map22, though.

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Snakes said:

Map21-Map27 is the only truly intolerable stretch of maps in the IWAD, I think. Map08 is a complete shit and Map11 is really really lame, as well.

Nothing holds a candle to Map22, though.

Yeah I remember really enjoying this megawad and thinking "wtf was everyone complaining about?" right up until I ran into those abominations.

Map15 is still my favorite out of the wad though, looks great and plays like a dream!

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Snakes said:

Map21-Map27 is the only truly intolerable stretch of maps in the IWAD


But I like or don't mind 21, 23, 24, if you got rid of all the completely retarded long hallways and connections I'm sure you could make a decent map out of 25, and 26

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Tarnsman said:

But I like or don't mind 21, 23, 24, if you got rid of all the completely retarded long hallways and connections I'm sure you could make a decent map out of 25, and 26

I really don't like Map21, which sucks because I find Map20 to be quite an enjoyable trek. OTOH, my dislike from Map23 stems largely from the fact that it was clearly made with the first episode in mind (also it's really, really flat almost everywhere). Map24 is tiny, but at least UV-speed is silly. Map25's a shrug-worthy attempt and Map26 feels like a poor execution of a neat concept.

Map28 and Map29 rock my socks off.

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I liked this map when I first played it, but looking back on it does make it look a bit silly. Still, this was a fun map despite some design flaws.

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Yeah, it's a quirky one, alright. It's not my favourite (I find TNT on the whole a bit odd (I'm more of an E1 guy)), but I appreciate some of the more experimental (for the time) bits.

Also, I must be the only one in the whole wide Doom world who thought that the part with the nukage and water looked pretty cool.

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schwerpunk said:

Also, I must be the only one in the whole wide Doom world who thought that the part with the nukage and water looked pretty cool.

I thought that it looked superb and was ahead of it's time when I first saw it. I still find the SILVER1 -nukage room with the 19 elevators cool and would like to play a sewer map which uses these textures. Adding the Dead Pool music from MK2 for that would be epic.

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qoncept said:

I thought TNT sucked from the very first map.



actually, i think it's a quite nice starting map, especially if you feel like beating them all into pulp. didn't we have a thread on this not long ago: tnt has mix of good and bad maps, which tend to stand out more than plutonia with its more consistent theme.

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I found very few maps in TNT to be "bad", a great majority had tricks and special designs that made many memorable and distinct long after you finished it. Meanwhile in Plutonia, I only ever remember the first few maps, Hunted, Speed, the last two levels and the secret levels.

Habitat I always liked for its weird pipe network, the big nukage pit with detailing and the water with the nukage running into it. While testing Doom Expanded I warped there to refresh every detail of the map, and theres a few dull bits, but its still quite an atmospheric map to me.

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I felt like Evilution was half good and half bad while Plutonia is all inbetween, I prefered Evilution's good half over Plutonia as a whole.

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In my opinion, TNT has 2 or 3 good maps maximum, and the majority of the rest is complete shit one way or another. Horrible new music, absolutely horrible new textures, horrible architecture, horrible gameplay. Plutonia is not even comparable, even the worst of it is heaps better than anything in TNT.

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qoncept said:

I thought TNT sucked from the very first map.

I'm aweinspired by the level of your hipster coolness.

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kristus said:

I'm aweinspired by the level of your hipster coolness.

I don't get it.

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Snakes said:

Map21-Map27 is the only truly intolerable stretch of maps in the IWAD, I think. Map08 is a complete shit and Map11 is really really lame, as well.

Nothing holds a candle to Map22, though.


I don't think MAP22 is the worst map in TNT, IMO that honor goes to MAP27, but it's there. I think MAP25 and 26 are not that bad, but I agree with 22-24 and 27 to be probably the worst.
I also dislike MAP08 and MAP15. I may have something againist that music because I see no logical reason why I should dislike MAP15 the way I do, other than it shares the music with the horrendous MAP08 and 27.

To talk about positives too, MAP 3, 4, 28 and 29 are really good. 28 and 29 bring on the classic hell style while 3 and 4 are just simply well done.
Thinking about it I can find good bits in bad maps (like the aforementioned nukagey part of MAP22) and bad bits in good maps (like MAP03's tekgreen corridors)

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Actually MAP15 shares the music with MAP02.

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Memfis said:

Actually MAP15 shares the music with MAP02.


I just checked and you are right. OK then, I have exhausted my reasonable options why I'd dislike it, so I have no idea why. It's nice, nonlinear and open, but there's just something not right about how it plays...

It might be because I like to 100/100/100 all maps, and there are very strange secrets and a stuck deaf cacodemon on this map...

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qoncept said:

I don't get it.


He probably thinks that hating TNT is an unpopular opinion for some reason. Well it would be if TNT didn't suck so bad!

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Any level with an outrageous speedrunning shortcut is all right by me. The more of the level it allows omission of, the better. *

The ones I don't like are those where you can't skip the tedious parts...

_________
* And the more unintentional or unforseen it is, the more hilarious. E2M6's "glide right through a solid wall then press the exit from outside the map" is still my favourite.

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I honestly see no reason to hate the new music in TNT, I only found one of the tracks annoying after time and they're a much better change than the re-used UD and D2 music in Plutonia, as for the textures only a few look bad like the barbed wire fence because how it almost looks like vines to some people only because of the green pixels :P and the poor attempt at the metal look and the crappy brown texture in the tunnels of Mount Pain, I think more than just a few maps are actually good, I'm tired of Plutonia's repetative theme as it just gets boring to me, I'm particularly not so found of the secret map with thousands of monsters as it just feels like too much of a grind to do.

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