What is with the hate against the Wolfenstein maps in Doom II?

Quasar, you summed things up really well, especially in regards to "Doom 64." That version of "Doom" has the best secret levels of the series, and the fact that they both upgrade your weapon and alter the way you can beat the last map is ingenious.

As far as "people" hating the "Wolf" maps, I don't think the vast majority of us here hate them, but a lot of us seem to dislike them at least somewhat. Both the nazi sprites and the textures feel stupidly out of place in Doom, so when people try to map with them, it usually feels very awkward or forced. Same goes for the Keen sprite. It's a fun gimmick, but how many maps make use of them?

myk said:

People needs modifiers or contexts, or it may mean anything from "that guy" to "everybody". For the most part, terms end up insinuating ample meanings if used in general, not specific ones. He used more words, which are qualifiers that make things more explicit. People over here is akin to "regulars", since their belonging to this place defines them. Just go to some town, sit at a bar and say "people over here smell" and see what happens, unless you can show evidence such as sitting near the local drunk and making a subtle gesture in his direction, tipping everyone off that you don't mean them in general.

What really comes out of his original comment is that here (in Doomworld) there's "surprisingly much" of thinking these levels suck. Perhaps from a few very vocal or reiterative people, or from many that titter about it continuously in low voices, but either way as something that generally pervades Doomworld and must be challenged once and for all.

Well, my english kinda sucks, so that is the reason of this misunderstanding, so i'm sorry about that, hex11 explained better what i tried to say.

vdgg said:

I found the midget Nazis hilarious, I liked the idea (wow! I found a secret exit on MAP15 all by myself).

The problem for me was that they somehow had to recreate the first level from the shareware episode which was very shitty IMO. But then, it was easier to recreate as it had only two monster types, unlike the other maps.

this. the SS guards are big, dangerous dudes in wolf3d, but look like midgets in doom and do much less damage. this adds to the perceived cheapness of the secret maps: not only are they flat and square, they don't even scale properly. they don't look like doom and have boring gameplay. there's no reason why there are full two maps of this kind. a secret wolf3d tribute room (like in rage) would have sufficed.

"hate" is exaggerated, i think people don't like them simply because they feel out of place and cheap. at least they can be skipped easily.

I think wolfenstein may as well be my fave map of doom2.

I don't hate them, they just feel like a missed opportunity.

Doom II has it's concept maps in it's regular line up though. Levels like Tricks and Traps and Barrels of Fun for example would make good secret levels.

Quasar said:

Doom 64 did it right. Not only are there a ton of secrets (one of which is indeed gimmicky) but, the majority of them serve a purpose too - granting access to super-secret items that enhance your ultimate weapon.

That's a good point. The best kind of secrets are ones which reward you for finding them, besides the sense of completism.

I don't know about you, but I get kind of bored killing demons all the time, why not nazis.

Personally, I've got a bit of a habit of going into Brutal Doom MAP31 on UV, summoning 3 (friendly marines) with a weapon, then turning on infinite ammo, and using that same weapon myself only.

Netherstorm said:

I don't know about you, but I get kind of bored killing demons all the time, why not nazis.

Wouldn't be a problem except that the nazis don't fit with Doom's art style at all. The ones is Brutal Doom look good, though.

The secret levels needs gimmicks. There are enough occasions to gear up, so normal maps with kewl bonuses would be a disappointment for me. The closest resemblence is the best they could do when mimicking wolfenstein, it's great when you're playing it and you can benefit from knowing wolf 3d maps :)
I don't get why they used 128x textures though.

Just played through MAP31 and MAP32 again on my current run through of Doom 2. I don't mind them, really, but yeah. They're two ugly levels.

MAP32 is my favorite Deathmatch level in Doom 2 tho.

I never liked the Wolfenstein levels, but I do like the Wolfies. Their rapid-fire gun is very handy when you want something more than a Former Human and something less than Chaingun Charlie. I've used Wolfies and some of the Hitler textures in several of my levels, but in the as-yet unreleased ones, I'm removing the Wolfies and replacing them with chaingunners. It's mainly because the Wolfies look even more cartoony than the regular Doom critters.

I neither have opinions nor complains on Wolfenstein maps, still the maps are nice, no ridiculous parts. :)

EvilNed01 said:

MAP32 is my favorite Deathmatch level in Doom 2 tho.

Should've added this too. If you have a small group of people MAP32 is a great DM level. It's also good if say, you're trying tog get some friends to play with you and you want a bit of a tighter map with all the weapons and speed might get them to like it more maybe. The arena like design with the cover and weapons make it fast and fun. Add the Cyberdemon and now it's even a bit more intense. In a way, the similarly designed first boss level in Quake with the lavafucktard is also the level I used for DM matches with freinds in order to get them to like the game. We ended up DMing on that map about an hour a day during school for about two weeks before someone brought the Q3 demo in on a flash drive for us.