Doom 2 was a terrible game

Phml said:
Funny, I get the opposite feeling. People who like Doom 1 best seem to enjoy it because it's a more immersive and coherent experience. People who like Doom 2 best seem to do so because it's a more interesting gameplay experience.

We probably don't disagree that much as I wasn't really too clear there and meant to place a lot of emphasis on tech aspects. KDiZD is probably a good example in one case. It's inspired by nostalgic aspects but modifies the core of the game a lot. Alien Vendetta arguably falls in the other end of the spectrum.

This isn't a rule, of course, as there are exceptions, but speed runners tend to appreciate DOOM II a good deal and they tend to stick to vanilla, Boom, no mouselook and raw mechanics instead of very customizable features to allow new types of scenarios.

DOOM, being the first part, with a certain clean elegance, more nostalgia, a less predetermined story and more room ahead to imagine things tends to be remembered more by people looking for design novelty than DOOM II, which was published mainly to more or less perfect or fully realize DOOM's raw, quick "hack & slash with guns" gameplay.

DooM_RO said:
E3M4 is my favorite E3 map, it really feels like a torture house and I it also kind of feels like an adventure.

It's not that I hate it or anything and it does have some adventure aspects from a not-so-defined variety, although I'd think of E3M3 for a torture area. To me it feels somewhat clunky and not too definable. Other clunky maps like map21, for example, otherwise have more character in their designs. Map21, crudeness aside, makes me think of Lovecraftian or surreal weirdness. E3M4 is more of a "generic dungeon", which isn't a bad idea and gives it a central feel but doesn't make it stand out by itself.

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The map and the atmosphere were better in the ultimate doom compared with doom II. Most will agree. But I end up playing doom II more, just because of the new monsters. When I play the first doom, I realy miss them. But then: I played doom and doom II years after they were released. I played the full version of doom and Doom II at the same time so I never realy experienced the full version of Doom one before Doom II was released. Maybe that makes quiet a difference

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I can't remember a whole lot about E3M4, but the only level in Episode 3 that pisses me off is Limbo. The whole running here to there on hazardous floors, trying to find rad suits. It just feels out of place in the game.

I don't even mind Unholy Cathedral and its damn teleporters.

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Sandy's Doom 1 stuff definitely looks better than most of his Doom 2 stuff but in terms of layout, structure, and fun his Doom 2 levels far exceed his Doom 1 stuff. Romero's Doom 2 stuff flat out looks great and also plays better than his Doom 1 stuff.

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TheLazenby said:

I can't remember a whole lot about E3M4, but the only level in Episode 3 that pisses me off is Limbo. The whole running here to there on hazardous floors, trying to find rad suits. It just feels out of place in the game.


Funny, Limbo has long been my favorite E3 map and for me was one of the most defining and goto levels in the game.

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I think the SSG alone made Doom 2 Deathmatch amazing, that's not to mention the awesome single player/cooperative gameplay.

Deathmatch with single barrel shotguns just doesn't cut it anymore.

Come at me.

EDIT: In all seriousness, Doom 1 DID have better texturing and more clearly presented themes. Both games aren't without their flaws, but I think they're both part of one whole package. Doom 2, for me at least, may as well have been 'Episode 5 - Hell on Earth'.

Though the IOS is frequently criticized for being "just a demon wall", I thought the idea was quite novel at the time and it's a fun, challenging map to beat.

The ending of Doom 1 was better though, the enemy scroll for Doom 2 is okay but the bunny head on a stick stuck with me for YEARS. That kind of shit freaks you out when you're 7 years old and is rather endearing in it's way.

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Doomkid92 said:

Though the IOS is frequently criticized for being "just a demon wall", I thought the idea was quite novel at the time and it's a fun, challenging map to beat.


I personally liked the Icon of Sin, but I think it could have been better if it extended certain parts of the wall the texture was laid upon to give it a 3D pop.

Never mind, forgot that wasn't possible in the DooM engine. Unless it was made so that it wasn't floor over floor.

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Yeah, shitty game, with all that brown, and all those brown, shit-colored monsters....

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Platinum Shell said:

I personally liked the Icon of Sin, but I think it could have been better if it extended certain parts of the wall the texture was laid upon to give it a 3D pop.

Never mind, forgot that wasn't possible in the DooM engine. Unless it was made so that it wasn't floor over floor.

That didn't stop t.v. from doing it in Plutonia 2 :)

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I personally liked Doom 1's levels (mostly from E1) over Doom 2's, but the super shotgun and new monsters from Doom 2 made it well worth playing. And I do like Doom 1's soundtrack a lot over Doom 2's. However, I would not go as far as saying "Doom 2 was a terrible game."

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While I do think Doom 2 is the weakest out of the main five Classic Doom games, it's still a good game in it's own right and I definitely wouldn't call it bad by any means. Doom 1 had it's fair share of mediocre maps too.

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there can not be one doom which all of mankind would like.

doom 1 :
the first parts are mainly cramped spaces and mazes.
but it has this novelty charm, and retro feel now.
feels less fast paced somehow.

doom 2 :
more variation in level design, with some maps being kind of lame.
they probably felt more at home with the engine and the design process.
action driven, buttons are more a 'do not get boring' routine.

both are good, people usually have trouble with accepting sequels because they will almost never live up to what they envisioned in their mind. in my case i went reverse order, doom 2 to doom 1, so i have that problem in that order.

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FireFish said:

there can not be one doom which all of mankind would like.

doom 1 :
the first parts are mainly cramped spaces and mazes.
but it has this novelty charm, and retro feel now.
feels less fast paced somehow.

doom 2 :
more variation in level design, with some maps being kind of lame.
they probably felt more at home with the engine and the design process.
action driven, buttons are more a 'do not get boring' routine.

both are good, people usually have trouble with accepting sequels because they will almost never live up to what they envisioned in their mind. in my case i went reverse order, doom 2 to doom 1, so i have that problem in that order.


I made an old thread last year back in early December gathering people's opinions on whether Doom 1 had better levels than Doom 2. http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-general/66429-does-doom-1-have-better-level-design-than-its-sequel-doom-2/

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babo said:

you ignored the rest of it, and you know what the point was that it's a slightly weaker baron with a different shade of colors. unimaginative.

How did I miss this my first read of this thread? This logic is impeccable.

Hey, did you guys know Super Mario World also sucks because red turtles are just green turtles that don't walk off cliffs? What a piece of shit game, amirite?

(As essel said, the Hell Knights are less of an ammo sponge. This makes them far more satisfying to fight in waves. Generally speaking, the Doom2 monsters are awesome. If I had to remove just one, it would be Pain Elementals but even then, if you're any good at Doom-engine games they are not a problem. If you're playing map packs with bad enemy placement, don't blame Doom2 for that.)

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Doomkid92 said:

Hey, did you guys know Super Mario World also sucks because red turtles are just green turtles that don't walk off cliffs? What a piece of shit game, amirite?


lmfao!

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The maps in Doom 2 were meh.

But the engine and the monsters were great. They barely added anything, though. Doom 2 is good for making maps and mods for. Doom 1 had great maps and it really just blew me away. Doom 2, not so much. I really only liked the 1st map and the final boss can go fuck itself.

I mean really, this is just an echo of what others are saying but, you fight a goddamned WALL.

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And every other monster in the game is a bunch of flat images.

Imagination, folks, imagination.

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I feel like I'm one of the few people who really enjoys Doom 2's maps. I also enjoy Doom 1's maps quite a bit, even E3. Okay, so Doom 2 is missing a few of Doom's coolest textures, the music is less overtly dark, some of the maps are pure novelty, there should have been at least one more new weapon, the end boss is no cyberdemon, and there's lots of brown. So what? The maps have a much cleaner layout than Doom, most of them are fun to navigate and the additional enemies add a lot of variety. I think for the new enemies alone I played Doom 2 way more than the original.

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Doomhuntress said:

the endboss in Doom was the Spider Mastermind, not the Cyberdemon. :p


I refuse to admit that a heavy weapons dude with slightly more hp is the last boss of doom >:(

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Looper said:

I refuse to admit that a heavy weapons dude with slightly more hp is the last boss of doom >:(

and i refuse to believe that what's essentially an imp with splash damage immunity, spades of HP, and a more powerful version of the fireball is the last boss of Doom. none of Doom's giant monsters works as a endboss, really, they're too simple for that.

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I don't know what you're talking about. The Cyberdemon is one of the classic boss fights in video game history.

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At least the Icon of Sin was a somewhat unique fight compared to the Cyberdemon and Spidermastermind, the execution was meh but at least it plays out rather uniquely compared to the standard arena match you get with a Cyberdemon.

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I always thought Icon of Sin was the nugget of poo floating in the cesspit of Doom. So in that sense, it is very special.

There's an excellent way to improve your enjoyment of Doom 2 by a factor of ten million. (Can you guess what comes next?)

Get your PlayStation out and load Doom up on that. Hey presto, ten million times better - and no Chasm!

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