Doom 2 was a terrible game

Find me something cut that I would have actually missed and we''ll see... as for the lag, it was just what we were used to. In fact I barely noticed it until playing the PSX TC. Had to get someone to show me how to modify GZDoom to get a lower frame rate and grittier graphics.

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MajorRawne said:

Find me something cut that I would have actually missed

Seems like a rather pointless effort.

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MajorRawne said:

Find me something cut that I would have actually missed and we''ll see...

Varied monster count.

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MajorRawne said:

Find me something cut that I would have actually missed

Well you might not miss them, but for people with actual taste, varied textures, layouts that aren't horrendously cut down, the best monster in the game, music, and some of the best Doom 2 maps.

Also the Chasm is a great map and if you don't like it you are objectively wrong, hate fun, probably kill puppies on a regular basis, and are literally Hitler.

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MajorRawne said:

Get your PlayStation out and load Doom up on that. Hey presto, ten million times better - and no Chasm!

Am I the only person in existence who thinks PC Doom/D2 takes a big, fat, steaming dump on the PSX versions? I mean honestly, colored lighting is cool and it was far and away the best console port of the old days, but the movement is just... so, SO hindered by that controller... Not to mention the various cuts as previously stated.

It was novel in it's time, but the SFX and music of the PC versions are miles ahead, not to mention how badly simplified the architecture is on pretty much every single map on the playstation version.

All that said, I appreciate the amount of TLC that must have gone into the PSX TC. It's just not my kind of thing.

In other words, what Tarnsman said.

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Good taste? Have you seen how some of the original maps are textured? And why am I supposed to bemoan the loss of a few winding corridors, nukage pools and bizarre crusher rooms that look like the colon of a habitual Korma eater? I'm a defender of good taste (fart jokes aside) so rather than being Hitler, I'm practically Winston Churchill.

Anyway to each their own, if I'd played the PC version first I might have liked that best and vice versa for PC players.

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Well I have to agree the Icon of Sin was different, and his death was kinda cool. But it just needed a little something to it besides that Revenant at the platform on UV. Maybe some arms and a mouth that spits out missiles. Unfortunately the technology back then probably wouldn't have been powerful.

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If TNT's MAP30 was Doom 2's MAP30, I would be happy with the final map.

Also, Doom 2 may "Suck" but it allows us to do even more with wads and levels and crap like that (The new monsters and more map slots in a continuous pattern is great for progressive megawads as well as the new textures it has).

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Never was a HUGE fan of Doom II. I played it through twice, I think. I don't revisit it as much as I do the classic trilogy. I honestly can't explain why.

At a guess, some of it might be related to the fact that I played Doom, then Duke Nukem 3D, and then Doom II. I expected a little more reality to the Earthly locations. Although the first Doom isn't exactly realistic, I do feel the human locations at least have some kind of a reality to them that Doom II seemingly lacks.

Indeed, i've always wished for such a mod to go back and try it's hand at some logical design for Doom II's early levels. Basically, designs based on the story at play. (Space port, city, descent into Hell.). If anyone has any suggestions on a good mod that does something like that, please share a link for that.

Another thing that doesn't help is it really does feel like it's little more than a glorified expansion pack. Not too different from Duke 3D's Plutonium pack. Some new enemies, a few new effects, a new adventure, and a new weapon. It doesn't really feel like it's pushing boundaries.

Not too huge on the texture set either. Some of the demonic stuff is cool, but I felt the tech stuff in the original Doom looked better.

I wouldn't say it's terrible. It's just a matter of taste. For me, the original Doom will always stand over it.


As a Doom II related aside, I was doing some very old dusty Doom research a week ago, and incidentally there was a time when the Doom film was being worked on during the 90s that the story concept was centered around the events of Doom II, and not the first [strike]film[/strike] game.

"Tri-Star wants to be true to the game and our primary goal is to create a story that won't alienate the die-hard fans. The studio really likes the 'hell on Earth' concept.
The story will have something to do with an alternate evolution from the bowels of the Earth that makes its way topside. Like the game, our heroes will be locked in combat
with the creatures and forced to annihilate them. If you've played the game then you know there isn't much story there. Tri-Star has handed Doom to Dark Horizons. We've overcome that hurdle and hope to begin writing any day now."

That was between 2000 and 2002 I believe. Just an interesting bit of historical trivia.

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OpenMaw said:

Indeed, i've always wished for such a mod to go back and try it's hand at some logical design for Doom II's early levels. Basically, designs based on the story at play. (Space port, city, descent into Hell.). If anyone has any suggestions on a good mod that does something like that, please share a link for that.

doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=9597]Phobos by Roger Ritenour recreates the first four level of DOOM that way, in a vanilla DOOM2 WAD. Not quite what you asked for, but it's the closest thing I can think of.
Agree on all points re: DOOM2 being an expansion pack. It's a matter of perspective though: it seems that to most people DOOM was a mere prototype of the "full game".

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OpenMaw said:

Indeed, i've always wished for such a mod to go back and try it's hand at some logical design for Doom II's early levels. Basically, designs based on the story at play. (Space port, city, descent into Hell.). If anyone has any suggestions on a good mod that does something like that, please share a link for that.


Doom 2 Reloaded?
http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?file=levels/doom2/megawads/d2reload.zip

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OpenMaw said:

Not too different from Duke 3D's Plutonium pack.

Doom 2's additions are much more important for the balance.

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Never_Again said:

doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=9597]Phobos by Roger Ritenour recreates the first four level of DOOM that way, in a vanilla DOOM2 WAD. Not quite what you asked for, but it's the closest thing I can think of.
Agree on all points re: DOOM2 being an expansion pack. It's a matter of perspective though: it seems that to most people DOOM was a mere prototype of the "full game".


Oh yeah! I remember Phobos. That's a damn good map pack indeed.

plums said:


Hey, thanks! I'll have to try that out.

Da Werecat said:

Doom 2's additions are much more important for the balance.


That's true enough, but I still hold to my primary point. The scale of change is minimal, and closer to an expansion pack. A few new monsters, new levels, and a new weapon. It's hardly revolution, more akin to a minor iteration. They didn't even bother with doing clean up on the holdover sprites from the first Doom. Just cleaning up artifacts and glitches. I think they could have spent a little more time on it and really made it more cohesive and the changes more expansive. Something closer to Doom 64, in terms of the scripting enhancements. Maybe integrated some of the features that were supposed to be in the first game but were cut. Things like sloped floors and ceilings. Just, anything, to really make it a step up from Doom.

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OpenMaw said:

It's hardly revolution, more akin to a minor iteration.

If only all minor iterations were so major.

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Da Werecat said:

If only all minor iterations were so major.


I wouldn't say the changes to DooM 2 were THAT big of a change, but it was definitely a step up from the usual cast of demons.

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Yeah, it really wasn't major. Name one thing in Doom II that is a truly major change?

The one new weapon is effectively a copy and paste of a preexisting one. The new monsters are simple variations on the monsters that already existed in the first game.

New Weapon:
Super Shotgun. It's the shotgun, only more damage and slower rate of fire. Sure, it adds balance, but that's not revolution, that's iteration. That's improving slightly on what already existed.

New Monsters:
Chaingunner is a faster firing sergeant.

Hellknight is a weaker version of the Baron.

Macubus is a harder to kill, slow moving version of an imp.

Revenant fires a projectile that tracks the player.

Archvile is probably the only monster added with a truly revolutionary idea. Resurrecting the dead.

Pain Elemental is little more than a hacked Cacodemon that fires Lost Souls. Something Justin Fisher did with the Aliens TC to make eggs spawn face huggers.

Arachnotron is a projectile shooting mini-mastermind.

You see? Outside of the Archvile they don't really do anything new. Melee attacks and projectile attacks. There's no major twists. Oh sure, the revenant has tracking missiles. Not a big deal once you lay your hands on the SSG.


As far as the levels? A few new gags with triggers, a new set of textures, and new music. This is all more of the same. It's hardly major in any sense of the word. There's nothing major as far as engine changes. Like the aforementioned slopes, or room over room, or something- Anything to show this was going to really step things up from the last game. It was rushed to stores because they had a retail deadline. Doom, with a few more things, and a slightly different visual aesthetic to the level design.

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OpenMaw said:

New Monsters:
Chaingunner is a faster firing sergeant.

Macubus is a harder to kill, slow moving version of an imp.


r u retard

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OpenMaw said:

New Monsters:
Chaingunner is a faster firing sergeant.

Hellknight is a weaker version of the Baron.

Macubus is a harder to kill, slow moving version of an imp.

Revenant fires a projectile that tracks the player.

Archvile is probably the only monster added with a truly revolutionary idea. Resurrecting the dead.

Pain Elemental is little more than a hacked Cacodemon that fires Lost Souls. Something Justin Fisher did with the Aliens TC to make eggs spawn face huggers.

Arachnotron is a projectile shooting mini-mastermind.

You see? Outside of the Archvile they don't really do anything new. Melee attacks and projectile attacks. There's no major twists. Oh sure, the revenant has tracking missiles.

What the fu...

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OpenMaw, you're trying too hard. With such logic it's not impossible to discard just about any sequel.

You should wrap your head around the fact that seemingly small tweaks can mean a lot. Slopes are cool, but they wouldn't contribute to the game's longevity nearly as much as augmented bestiary did.

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I'd like to spend my tuppence in this thread.

Ultimate Doom has better levels and music than Doom 2, in my opinion of course.

Doom 2 introduces the best weapon and better enemies to populate the mid-tier. There really is a lot more variety in Doom 2 given that the mappers don't need to over-use Barons and Cacodemons.

This is why I prefer the port I keep talking about but won't name here to avoid annoying people: you get Doom 2 monsters in Ultimate Doom levels to keep things fresh and surprise veterans, and you get a variety of cool effects such as coloured lighting and a burning sky to create a more horrifying atmosphere. IMO it's the atmosphere of Doom 2 that is partly to blame for me not liking it on the PC. It seems to have less personality, less old school charm, and that port addresses this issue.

Doom 2 does have some fantastic maps though. Dead Simple; Underhalls; the brutal co-op battle in Refuelling Base; exploring the Inmost Dens; the console-crashing Suburbs; Courtyard... hmm, maybe it's not that bad after all.

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Pistol is a Shotgun that shoots one bullet.
Super Shotgun is a Shotgun that shoots more bullets.
Chaingun is a Shotgun that shoots less bullets faster.
Rocket Launcher is a shotgun that shoots one slow bullet that acts like a lot of bullets.
Plasma Rifle is a Shotgun that shoots a lot of slow bullets faster that act like one bullet.
BFG is a Shotgun that shoots one bullet really slow that acts like a lot of bullets but delayed and weird.
Fist is a Shotgun that shoots one bullet for only one foot.
Chainsaw is a Shotgun that shoots many bullets at once for only one foot.

Doom 1 is Shotguns game: The game.

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I'm not entirely sure what i just read there.

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basically, life is one big shotgun

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Jaxxoon R said:

Pistol is a Shotgun that shoots one bullet.
Super Shotgun is a Shotgun that shoots more bullets.
Chaingun is a Shotgun that shoots less bullets faster.
Rocket Launcher is a shotgun that shoots one slow bullet that acts like a lot of bullets.
Plasma Rifle is a Shotgun that shoots a lot of slow bullets faster that act like one bullet.
BFG is a Shotgun that shoots one bullet really slow that acts like a lot of bullets but delayed and weird.
Fist is a Shotgun that shoots one bullet for only one foot.
Chainsaw is a Shotgun that shoots many bullets at once for only one foot.

Doom 1 is Shotguns game: The game.

This is a brilliant little analogy, I'd say.

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Where there any Doom 2 wads that set out to follow the spirit of the original doom's Level design?

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I apologise in advance for the long quote.

MajorRawne said:

I'd like to spend my tuppence in this thread.

Ultimate Doom has better levels and music than Doom 2, in my opinion of course.

Doom 2 introduces the best weapon and better enemies to populate the mid-tier. There really is a lot more variety in Doom 2 given that the mappers don't need to over-use Barons and Cacodemons.

This is why I prefer the port I keep talking about but won't name here to avoid annoying people: you get Doom 2 monsters in Ultimate Doom levels to keep things fresh and surprise veterans, and you get a variety of cool effects such as coloured lighting and a burning sky to create a more horrifying atmosphere. IMO it's the atmosphere of Doom 2 that is partly to blame for me not liking it on the PC. It seems to have less personality, less old school charm, and that port addresses this issue.

This is pretty much my opinion but when I was younger (during the war), I always assumed the first Doom did have all of the monsters (except the Arch Vile, until I played Doom 2 on the PC of course), I do prefer Ultimate Doom's level design to Doom 2's, although I do prefer the extended beastiary that Doom 2 provided despite not really liking the level design found in Doom 2 as much as I do with the first Doom. Oh and fact time: I only got Doom 2 on the PC for the Arch Vile but that's going back years ago now (not long after I saw pictures of the Arch Vile) and I wondered why it wasn't in the port in was playing but I obviously know the reason now.

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Jaxxoon R said:
Blah

Doom 1 is Shotguns game: The game. [/B]


My point still stands. There is nothing on display in Doom 2 that is drastically new. Nothing.

Da Werecat said:

OpenMaw, you're trying too hard. With such logic it's not impossible to discard just about any sequel.

You should wrap your head around the fact that seemingly small tweaks can mean a lot. Slopes are cool, but they wouldn't contribute to the game's longevity nearly as much as augmented bestiary did.


No, i'm really not. The game did not bring anything substantially new or ground breaking to the table. Variations on a theme. Yes, small tweaks can make a big difference, but there is fundamentally nothing different in Doom 2 that changes my play style in any significant way. If anything i'd say the Deathmatch is harmed by the SSG as it essentially makes it ten times easier to act like a grieving spawn killer.

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OpenMaw said:

Yes, small tweaks can make a big difference, but there is fundamentally nothing different in Doom 2 that changes my play style in any significant way.

Good for you.

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Wow (.wad), do you even know what the purpose behind a sequel is?

(Hint: A sequel is a continuation of a plot, not to ring as much new features in as possible)

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