Let's try it! (pistol is not that shitty weapon on HNTR)

Get a meditation, calm down your nerves, forget about your Doom, forget about your experience, forget about your slaughterous desires, ascend your mind above that all, forget it all - and now go and play KDiTD on a HNTR difficulty (ideally from pistol starts).

I've tried it. And actually found the game enjoyable even then. Pistol suddenly felt fun to use, as my opposition was so low - in both enemy count and in health, as there are mostly zombiemen and imps. Shotgun much improved the pacing, and running through the maps in shooting joy was very satisfying. Chaingun and the rocket launcher became like hyper-powerups, lasting to the end of a level (as I've pistol started). Of course the game lacked the proper Doom challenge we know and expect. But it didn't lack a challenge completely. It was just... pretty much impossible to die. But I could at least give myself minor self-imposed challenges, like: "Let's see how much damage I'll take in this room, which gives me problems on UV." All in all, wandering the maps was enjoyable and the game had a spirit.

I thought it'd be cool to create a mapset and balance it out specially for this HNTR-like gameplay. For those who'd like this experience and don't mind a lack of challenge, or who really suck (I suck, but fortunately not that much). And the other people would play this mapset on Nightmare!, which would be beneficial for them too, definitely. Even non-pros could manage it and improve their skill while getting accustomized to fast + respawn gimmick. But, this toned-down (or just differently approached) difficulty must be present on UV of this mapset. Firstly, to make people to actually play the intended way (everybody play on UV or at least HMP). Secondly, because Nightmare! is based off UV.

Basically, the maps would stick to low-tier enemies with low HP and have interesting fun-to-explore layouts. But I'm not entirely saying to dumb down gameplay! Challenge could be present anyways, for example with traps involving monsters behind you, attacking from different angles and heights, in combination with environmental hazards... You know, the same things classic modders use to spice up their Doom maps. But "with a lower-scale budget" (regarding enemies and weapons), that's the idea.

"Doom, low-tier only."

Anybody agree with me?

I'm liking the sound of that. To be honest, I don't like to play PWADs much because I find most of them either too challenging or just not enjoyable.

I disagree. I like the fact that i play on the hardest difficulty(NIGHTMARE aside) and dominate the enemy. I don't really like fighting low-tier monsters most of the time, it gets boring fast. thats why i love doom2 more then doom.

SFoZ911 said:

I disagree. I like the fact that i play on the hardest difficulty(NIGHTMARE aside) and dominate the enemy. I don't really like fighting low-tier monsters most of the time, it gets boring fast. thats why i love doom2 more then doom.

Thanks for your opinion, I see what you mean and in fact, I feel the very same when I normally play.

I just wanted to remind that my point is, that the mod in question will not be for everyone. Just for those who play badly, who prefer milder gameplay, or who'd want to get a reasonable challenge on Nightmare!.

It does sound like a cool idea, and I agree that there should be more mapsets for non-godlike players to hone their skills on. Even though I do like crazy hard maps, I say it's a good idea.

scifista42 said:

"Doom, low-tier only."

Anybody agree with me?

oh god no. complete antithesis of what I enjoy playing :p

That being said I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like it, so it's worth making if you have some interesting ideas in mind.

I like this idea. If any of you feel it's too easy, you can use -fast or -respawn (or both!).

Sounds boring, especially when you know that it won't get much harder as you progress: what is the point of playing, if it will always be a breeze. I'd rather see a difficulty spike near level 7 or 8 (Doom 1 end).

I made the first episode of UAC Ultra 2 with the intentions that you describe. People thought it was boring.

Eh, it was a nice casual stroll through the first episode.

Always pistol start. This is a shocking design failure in this greatest of video games. If you carry your weapons across levels you are playing virtually a non-game, trust me. The real phenomena begin to emerge when you pistol start. I didn't care for e3 at all until I discovered pistol starting.

Important question: what is the player's goal? To reach the exit? In that case, speedrunners are the only ones playing properly but I don't find that very fun. Perhaps your goal is to kill everything and get damaged as little as possible.

When I think of this vibe you're describing, I often bring up Spyro the Dragon. A very pleasant way to while away a bit of a lazy Sunday afternoon, perhaps with a big bowl of cereal. I haven't played Fez but it seems to be in a similar vein.

One of the many reasons I love Eternal is the way he balances classic Doom 1 low-tier gameplay ("core" gameplay in my view) against escalated Robotron-style gameplay.

scifista42 said:

"Doom, low-tier only."

Anybody agree with me?

Me. Specially because there are almost no wads with this kind of difficulty, generally HMP is UV, UV is insane. I believe there is people out there that have fun simply shooting stuff while exploring a nice environment, but mappers don't seem to agree with it. I find most maps just frustrating to play.

There are few mappers that actually implement skills 1 and 2 effectively (with power ups instead of taking all monsters away).

But it still lacks some wads for us lazy players. I don't like dying. I don't like doing things twice. I like challenge as long as it doesn't kill me too much.

Lack of chalenge can be boring? Yes. Starting a map all over again after dying in a trap near the exit can be boring? YES. Save scumming is boring? YEEES.

Mindless killing can be very fun. Sometimes you just want to win.

Darch said:

Me. Specially because there are almost no wads with this kind of difficulty, generally HMP is UV, UV is insane. I believe there is people out there that have fun simply shooting stuff while exploring a nice environment, but mappers don't seem to agree with it. I find most maps just frustrating to play.

There are few mappers that actually implement skills 1 and 2 effectively (with power ups instead of taking all monsters away).

But it still lacks some wads for us lazy players. I don't like dying. I don't like doing things twice. I like challenge as long as it doesn't kill me too much.

Lack of chalenge can be boring? Yes. Starting a map all over again after dying in a trap near the exit can be boring? YES. Save scumming is boring? YEEES.

Mindless killing can be very fun. Sometimes you just want to win.

I completely agree with this.

I think the main issue here is that almost everyone seems to play on UV (or at least they pretend to...), and some mappers just don't like to implement difficulty settings (which may be understandable given what I just said), but not everyone around here are Doom gods, including me.

For example, I genuinely enjoy slaughter maps, even when I can't finish 99% of them on UV, at least in my first few tries, so naturally I just turn the difficulty down so I can have a reasonable challenge according to my skill. In fact, when I tried to go through Hell Revealed the first time, I just couldn't do it on HMP, let alone UV, so, what did I do? Well, I just selected skill 1, fast monsters, and had a blast. It's not about being the most hardcore Doom player, or the fastest, or whatever. It's just about having fun the way you want it.

Macblain said:

Always pistol start. This is a shocking design failure in this greatest of video games. If you carry your weapons across levels you are playing virtually a non-game, trust me. The real phenomena begin to emerge when you pistol start. I didn't care for e3 at all until I discovered pistol starting.

Narrative integrity is not a "design failure". How the hell would a game like Unreal or Deus Ex, let alone much later games, work if it kept taking away all your inventory, and in the case of Deus Ex, your character development as well, for every new area? Hell most first-person (not just FPS) games aside from Wolfenstein, Doom, or Quake don't even let you continue after dying, they just give you a game over and the option to reload. You died, so you are dead.

WW, I agree with you.

I meant that all the IWADs are balanced for pistol start and they become incredibly easy otherwise. You don't really see the gameplay design until you pistol start most Doom levels.

Now, a Doom episode that was explicitly designed for weapon carryover, that I would find very interesting. Maybe only one new weapon per every few levels? Maybe you have to save some rockets for an encounter three levels later? Yeah, that would be very cool.

Macblain said:

Now, a Doom episode that was explicitly designed for weapon carryover, that I would find very interesting.

I'd say that most Doom modders are trying to manage this at least somehow.

Maybe only one new weapon per every few levels? Maybe you have to save some rockets for an encounter three levels later? Yeah, that would be very cool.

Well, maybe not in that way, then. Also I don't agree that the thing you mention would be cool. I'd probably view slow weapon progression or foreknowledge-requiring design as a flaw. But that depends on a point of view, and I might be misunderstanding you or taking too literally.

Very interesting how varying asnwers and opinion this thread gets, thanks, people!

scifista42 said:

Well, maybe not in that way, then. Also I don't agree that the thing you mention would be cool. I'd probably view slow weapon progression or foreknowledge-requiring design as a flaw. But that depends on a point of view, and I might be misunderstanding you or taking too literally.

I actually like the idea of a new weapon every 3-5 levels, depending on how many levels are there in the wad. One of the things I really didn't like about Doom II is the introduction of the SSG as early as MAP02, and one of the things I liked about Hexen was the fact that you had to "build" the last weapon, and the fact that you only had 3 weapons before that forced you to use the few available ones wisely.

Macblain said:

WW, I agree with you.

I meant that all the IWADs are balanced for pistol start and they become incredibly easy otherwise. You don't really see the gameplay design until you pistol start most Doom levels.

Now, a Doom episode that was explicitly designed for weapon carryover, that I would find very interesting. Maybe only one new weapon per every few levels? Maybe you have to save some rockets for an encounter three levels later? Yeah, that would be very cool.

Huh, I've always seen pistol starting as more of a punishment for screwing up in Doom maps. In my mods I've always tried to introduce new weapons slowly and gradually instead of dumping everything in early. Being able to get the BFG only a quarter of the way through Doom II is just galling to me. For instance, my ECWolf tech demo has 9 regular maps (+1 secret), and the MG42, the strongest weapon, is only available on levels 7, 8, and 9, and the only one on level 7 is hidden.