Did Final Doom suck the Grand Potato?

Final Doom Was Clearly better than The Official ID Software made,espically TNT Evilution,the first time I looked at it I loved that theme that TNT aimed to,the space feeling sky,the technical feeling,the pace,the new music themes,yeah there are some maps that was not good design,but at least it was enjoyable,my favorite map in the entire world of original Doom was Map31 Pharaoh,the puzzled themes and the egyptian style,reminds me of Age of Empires with the whole civilizations

Plutonia Experament is probably my least favorite out of the original Doom games,it wasn't bad,it was good,I always wanted harder maps and powerful challanges,my favorite map in the game was Go 2 it because it represented the biggest challenge I've ever felt,but even though Plutonia has a number of better map design more than TNT,half of the textures used in Plutonia was just Ugly and it robbbed me in a wrong way,and after Playing Go 2 it to move on to the next 15 maps,I only enjoyed four of them,the rest was uneventful,one map that I actually described as the worst map in Plutonia was map29 "Odyssey of Noises" for many reasons,and the biggest reason why it was the worst becasue of the Cyberdemon Placment in this map,like hitting you out of nowhere and killing me abut 6,7 times and pissing the hell out of me,ruining the whole map to me,the only good thing about this map was the City design from the outside and that's about it.

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Just stopping by to remind everyone that Plutonia is the best IWAD and that if you dislike it you're wrong and have terrible taste and probably do horrible things to your fellow man and planet, like mind control deer to rape children.

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TNT is good, I like the custom textures and music which add more value for your $ and the challenge is fair throughout the whole map pack. Some texture choices are literally vomit though, looking far worse than anything in D2 - These are rare enough to be excusable though.

Plutonia relies WAY too much on chaingunners as others have mentioned. Challenge is great, but this just feels like the same battle over and over. The revenants fire a ball, no problem to avoid generally. The map themes were VERY repetitive, like a cleaner but also less interesting Doom 2.

I like them both, definitely not "Grand Potato" suckers, but in my opinion the design for both TNT and Plutonia falls short of Doom 1 and especially Doom 2. Great as add-ons, however they just seem like the other 2 episodes for Doom 2, not unique entries in the Doom series (like Doom64 dared to try at. On that note, not the best map design, but EXCELLENT presentation and atmosphere, not just another expansion but a whole new game. I recently got a hard copy for my n64 - it is far better on the real system, played on a CRT in a dark room with loud sound than any of the PC mods or ports. Oh mama.)

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I have to agree wholeheartedly with MajorRawne's opening post.
Final DooM isn't as good as the original DooM (My reasoning is similar to his).
Which IWAD do I like most?
DooM and PSX DooM, because of the atmosphere and sense of progression. I still haven't played DooM64, unfortunately. How does that game compare with the others?

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Olroda said:

How does that game compare with the others?

It sucks, of course. Just like everything else in this world.

Except Doom 1.

On PSX.

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Doom 64 has some good atmosphere and some neat effects and triggers. Eerie game. Could've used multiplayer, though. HeXen 64 had it, different engines they may have been, though (?)

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If you enjoy how the PSX Doom sounds, you'll like how Doom64 sounds...a lot of enemy and other sound effects are taken from PSX Doom.

Doom 64 also has it's own ambient soundtrack too..similar to, but not quite the same as PSX.

I've only played a bit of it, but it is pretty fun....although the new sprite work might be a bit weird looking as all the enemies had a redesign (I like how the game explains this though, by saying they were resurrected by the Mother Demon and mutated by this process hence their new looks and possible functions).

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Speaking of Hexen 64 I wish someone would make a TC of it for Hexen.

Edit: Why some people hate Doom 64 enough to make a fuss of it I'll never know.

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Xegethra, it's fair to assume that PSX fans would have taken to Doom 64 more readily than players from the PC or other ports, but I have never - not ever - liked Doom 64.

They changed the monster designs so they all look like someone's hurling tremendous turds in your face, the weapons look crap, the plasma rifle is annoying to hold for more than three seconds, the sprites are hard to make out in the heat of battle and none of the reviewers of the day understood how to make the Unmaker worth using (and nor could I, as I am not bothered about 100% secrets).

Also, gameplay was even slower than on the Playstation, more monsters were cut, all of the levels seemed to share a single texture set and even Aubrey Hodges' music was wide of the mark. Scary, yes, but nothing you'd sit and listen to, unlike Hangar and Toxin Refinery.

Oh yes, and some of the monsters had large and obvious anus holes, which I have always wondered if it is meant to be symbolic.

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I still think it's fairly decent from what I've seen of it. As it is after all the teams first attempt at an entirely new version of Doom. It's not great but it is kinda fun for me.

I also don't like how the new sprites look, but like I said before I like how they explain them looking different. One example though is the shotgun...it doesn't look like I'm firing it. But otherwise, I think the game is alright.

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There was a project to convert all the Doom 64 maps into PC Doom 2 style. That would be worth playing, to see if familiar graphics make any difference. I reckon they would make a huge difference.

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Actually, they highlight the real downside of Doom 64: relatively flat maps.

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Art style aside, I like Doom64 and its atmosphere. I like and find the idea of the demonic artifacts interesting, in how they upgrade the Unmaker and how they have a purpose in the final fight against the Mother Demon.

I wish Doom and/or PSX Doom had something like that.

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TNT feels like a failed experiment, all sorts of weird map decisions and stumbles. plus I do partially blame it for bringing down the hammer once and for all on .MIDs that aren't terrible metal with distortion guitar playing at 127 volume. in my mind Doom still works better with moody funk, hee

Plutonia I adore because it's hard. I particularly like playing Caughtyard from scratch because of the way you have to dance and shove yourself into dangerous places where you want to look simultaneously in opposite directions. of course I die lots, I'm not a great player. but I think all games should have a Too Hard For You mode. also most of the levels are really thoughtful and elegant.

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Plutonia's theme is repetitive and bland as fuck and the new textures also look bland, I can't say I stand the over use of revenants and chainguners nor the slaughterish maps especially MAP32, the fact that it had no new music around the time was kind of a downer.

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mrthejoshmon said:

I find personally dislike Plutonia as it feels like a boring slog through countless dick moves by the map creator (infinitely reviving chaingunners, rooms absolutely filled with high level monsters, revenants all over the place and other such dickery). Rather than have fun plowing through the encounters, it just gets fucking annoying with ambush after ambush.

Granted, with multiple playthroughs I could possibly be able to appreciate it more as I will be more used to its bullshit, but one was enough.

This guy, he gets it. This pretty much hits on most of my issues with Final Doom/Plutonia.

Utilizing Doom's game engine idiosyncrasies in order to push the dildo in an inch deeper does not a challenge make. Do I enjoy a marathon as a personal challenge? Sure. Is it more satisfying if they hack my right leg off at the starting line? No, I can't say that would give me a sense of accomplishment.

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Job said:

This guy, he gets it. This pretty much hits on most of my issues with Final Doom/Plutonia.

Utilizing Doom's game engine idiosyncrasies in order to push the dildo in an inch deeper does not a challenge make.

I'm pretty sure Plutonia made a decent challenge.

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Job said:

This guy, he gets it.


Have you considered the fact that maybe you both don't?

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j4rio said:

Have you considered the fact that maybe you both don't?

I have not. Then again, I'm not really a big fan of bondage or S&M either.

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Job said:

I have not. Then again, I'm not really a big fan of bondage or S&M either.


Plutonia isn't about "countless dick moves", it's about smart monster placement that actually puts pressure on the player and forces them to be smart and move well. If you don't like that then fine, but saying Doom isn't "about" such a thing is entirely subjective.

Again, if you think something is an unfair challenge despite the fact that many people can overcome it maybe the level design isn't the problem here. Have you considered playing it on HMP or HNTR?

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Job said:

This guy, he gets it.

I always liked this phrase. It allows you to imply that only your opinion is based on knowledge and understanding, while leaving you enough space to retreat (because you didn't say it directly).

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I'm sorry but how the hell does somebody "Get" an opinion? (Terrible phrasing but whatever)

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I get your opinion, you hit the nail right on the head with that one!

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Yep, your opinion is completely your opinion. Good job!

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Doomworld Hardasses: Always at odds with the rest of the community.

OT: Im not too fond of Plutonia either, but I have finished it and did appreciate the challenge of it. A day or two of dedicated play left the insurmountable challenge conquered, but its not something I'll return to lightly. The next time I'll play it will be on the PS3, to get the Plutonia trophy. Other than that? Probably once a decade.

No Rest for the Living is a brutal challenge I can play many times though. That one is right up my alley. Doesnt help that its only nine levels. Once again, smaller episodes win out.

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I am no authority on Plutonia, but I can't recall "clever" monster placement. My memories are finding it unplayable on co-op due to constantly being hit by Chaingunners. My co-op partner said the same. I cite the opinions of an unnamed friend, therefore it must be true, mwahaha! Personally, I find it obvious that they had time constraints and I feel there is a great deal of repetition. I guess Plutonia is the point at which Doom begins to diverge, then Doom 64 and later Doom 3 arrived to further divide opinion.

TNT struck me as the more Doom-like of the Final Doom saga.

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Plutonia is fantastic. The maps themselves are just brilliant. They're the next step beyond Doom II. I mean the maps are nearly perfect, they don't usually overstay their welcome, the layouts are fantastic and pretty damn original. And yes there is a challenge to them. But getting through every single level to the end is as satisfying as it gets for a IWAD.

The only complaint should be for it's difficulty cause for a lot of people (like me) it's pretty goddamn tough. Guys like King Dime make it look like kids play.

Plutonia is ace. TNT is alright I suppose.

Hilarious that PSX doom has about 6 Plutonia maps in all.

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