Did Final Doom suck the Grand Potato?

A music fault in TNT map 2? That's interesting - in PSX map 2, Virgil, the music plays once and doesn't repeat. So both PC and PSX Final Doom have issues with music in the second map!

Crater can definitely be viewed as under-populated, that's why it becomes more of an experience. That music gets to you when you're on your own. Miles of dark (and optional) water tunnels and a low monster count mean the player concentrates on their environment, they don't just use it to hide from shotgun blasts.

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I remember being shocked hearing the Human BBQ music in Zdoom about 10 years back, I actually thought someone had remixed the song to make it at least listenable and really enjoyed it. I was equally surprised when I found out that's how it was supposed to sound all along!

When I heard the Doom95 version as a youngster, I distinctly remember thinking the music card had broken in my PC and it freaked me out pretty bad. I was so relieved when the main riff came in.

I'm pretty sure Doom Legacy retains the glitch. I've never checked, but does it happen under DOS, or just d95?

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Evilution is like adventure. Plutonia is like slaughterfest.

They both great but I prefer Evilution for map design and music.

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Plutonia doesn't feel like a slaughtermapset at all..... Go look at the monster counts. Plutonia contains much lower monster counts than most people realize.

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I really need to know: just what IS the Grand Potato?

Dime said:

Plutonia doesn't feel like a slaughtermapset at all..... Go look at the monster counts. Plutonia contains much lower monster counts than most people realize.

I think people might call it a slaughter set because of the intensive combat. But that's not due to numbers, but is rather due to tight corners, tricky placement and unexpected traps.

I see Evilution as a spin-off that focuses on exploration and adventure, and Plutonia as merely a "try these on for size" kind of series of challenges, and not nearly as story focused as the former.

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Sodaholic said:

I see Evilution as a spin-off that focuses on exploration and adventure, and Plutonia as merely a "try these on for size" kind of series of challenges, and not nearly as story focused as the former.

Evilution had a story?

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esselfortium said:

Evilution had a story?

A loose one, sure. Take Wormhole, for example. The map's design is focused on telling the story of a base with more than meets the eye: a parallel world through hidden portals. I did say loose! Petersen's maps were also sort of simple adventure-like stories.

Now, to say Evilution has an actual plot beyond meaningless and last-minute filler, no, of course not. But don't confuse plot and story. Story can be extrapolated even from abstract and dead simple video game levels.

Plutonia also has that to a degree, but the focus is more throwing combat challenges at the player for purely systemized gameplay reasons. It's more about giving Doom veterans a run for their money than any kind of environmental storytelling.

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Plutonia.wad
Pros:
Increased difficulty compared to Doom II.
Largely decent map design/layouts.
Cons:
Brown, BROWN, BROWN!
Frequent Revenant/Chaingunner 'surprises' to the point of tedium.
No new music.

Really, Plutonia's problem (as far as I care) is that it can get very boring during a casual run. It almost immediately dishes out Revenants and Chaingunners on MAP01, and with one exception (MAP11) never stops throwing one or the other around like so much cheap confetti.

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In short, no.

You just have to take Final Doom from a different perspective. As many have already pointed out, Plutonia was meant to be a challenge, so complaining that it's a challenge is somewhat redundant. That said, with some mild effort a decent player can beat it without it becoming too repetitive. I'm not exactly a world-class Doomer, so if I can beat it on UV it's not THAT hard.

Personally, I liked Plutonia better when I was younger. I played TNT once and didn't really like it. After a few years I gave it another shot and it grew on me and now I like it more than Plutonia. I like both of them better than Doom 2.

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Honestly, I think that TNT is better if you want a varied, well-to-crap detailed megawad. I think Plutonia seems more professional.

It's really a matter of opinion, and I guess childhood memories.

But I really do not understand the complaints of Plutonia being "GREY" or "BROWN". I can see why its jungle levels would be brown, but c'mon, they're not THAT brown.


...are they...?


But how the hell are they GREY? :/

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Final doom was awesome, i don't remeber too much chaingunner spam in there, at least it didn't bother me. Cool design and really challenging and interesting maps. My one of the favorites in plutonia is that maze full of arch viles.

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Solid Snake said:

My one of the favorites in plutonia is that maze full of arch viles.


OOOOOHHH god. Hunted.


That was frickin' awesome! And it doesn't feel much like an unofficial level, despite sounding like it would on paper.

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Sodaholic said:

I really need to know: just what IS the Grand Potato?

(...)


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BaronOfStuff said:

Plutonia.wad
Pros:
Increased difficulty compared to Doom II.
Largely decent map design/layouts.
Cons:
Brown, BROWN, BROWN!
Frequent Revenant/Chaingunner 'surprises' to the point of tedium.
No new music.

Really, Plutonia's problem (as far as I care) is that it can get very boring during a casual run. It almost immediately dishes out Revenants and Chaingunners on MAP01, and with one exception (MAP11) never stops throwing one or the other around like so much cheap confetti.


Well,I don't mind them throwing Chaingunners and Revenants in the first maps,I thought it was cool until it starts to get boring and repetitive,also the main problem in Plutonia is that the difficulty changes from very difficult to easy by the time I get to the next maps in it

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Sokoro said:

The Grand Potato

Final Doom is so wasteful, it didn't even have the courtesy to EAT the potato, just suck it. That potato could have fed starving children damnit!

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Dunno if I already mentioned it, but I feel like PSX Final Doom cut a lot of the fat, because the maps featured are really solid and as good as any Doom 2 map.

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PSX Final Doom only had 6 plutonia maps, that's a crime against final doom.

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Keep in mind that a number of Final Doom PC's maps were much larger than Doom/Doom 2's, so only a handful of them made the cut. Plus the Jaguar code was used for PSX Doom, and it's pathetically unoptimized for the PS1's hardware.

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GoatLord said:

Dunno if I already mentioned it, but I feel like PSX Final Doom cut a lot of the fat, because the maps featured are really solid and as good as any Doom 2 map.


Agree, the PSX granted a nice peek without the monotonous onslaught of the PC version.

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TNT I can take or leave, but Plutonia I consider to be one of the best megawads available for the Game.

Consistent, Tight and difficult. Never before has a monster count of 100 or less in an individual map proved to be so deadly.

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I'm in two minds on Final Doom... Both episodes are more fresh and interesting than Doom II feels, IMO, but all three IWADs suffer two or three problems for me.
1) The Icon of Sin is not something I like, so even in Last Call, which has a good puzzle sequence, you end up trapped somewhere with a face I'm now happy to cheese with mouselook.
2) Whilst the majority of the 96 maps aren't bad, there's always ones that either feel dull enough to quell my interest in continuing (The Waste Tunnels, Realm and more maps than I can name in Evilution) or play in a fashion I'm not willing to bother with (Hunted is the crowning example here, but oodles of hitscanner-heavy corridor slogs in Evilution bother me and I find Tricks 'n' Traps to be quite limited in range of approaches)
3) MegaWAD fatigue sets in for me even if I am on a successful run. I think part of my problem is that I've been through everything once at least already, so I'd rather play something off the archives.

I definitely view TNT as the worst to play, although in terms of interesting visual design (particularly in the first 20 maps) it actually has some cool ideas. The big nukage fall in the secret tunnel in Crater is nice, stuff like the truck or pyramids was cool to see in Doom for that first time and they generally made nice bases. However, it does feel very PWADish, as somebody said earlier, with the wild inconsistency and very 90's lengthy corridors.

Plutonia is a masterclass of tight, videogame-y layouts that also features a great Doom city in Odyssey of Noises (Downtown, eat your heart out) and a sucktacular sewer level. However, I have to agree with the opinion that the constant surprise Chaingunners and Revenants and generally heavier going does get tiresome. I think that, despite my ability to beat very hard maps, I enjoy a more "pulsing" approach to difficulty, where there's light background resistance punctuated by the odd larger or more vicious encounter (rather like Doom, but with more aggressive larger encounters). The lack of music would be a problem for me if what is used wasn't fitting, so no complaint there.

Obviously just my opinions. I think all three have been surpassed by some of what the community has come up with, benefiting from the considerably greater experience, better tools and removed limits.

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dew said:

It's like a conspiracy of weekend warriors to bore everyone into admitting that challenge is unfun.

Kids these days... All those cutscenes and save points.

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Challenge is of course needed but not when it's executed too cheaply.

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I'll just come out and say it, I really love Plutonia. It's really not that cheap and the levels are of a super-high quality standard, even to this day.



The shitload of stuff they stole still lets it down a bit though. >:(

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Joe667 said:

The shitload of stuff they stole still lets it down a bit though. >:(

Stole? What did they steal?

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He's presumably referring to all of the references, copies of and homages to Doom II.

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I never could be arsed to go through Plutonia between the ha-ha-fuck-you Revenants and the EXCITING CHAINGUNNER-SNIPING ACTION. I got the feeling it was built more around save-scumming than a real flow.

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SlashBane said:

PSX Final Doom only had 6 plutonia maps, that's a crime against final doom.


Yeah,I think that Plutoina was the biggest victim in the PSX because the maps that was put there was forgettable and it didn't use the finest maps in Plutonia

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