Some alpha/beta stuff

Some of the captions for some of the pictures have questions in them, is that to get conversation started, or do you really not know?

edit: To be more clear, the question about E1M6/MAP10 there are a ton of secrets missing from beta E1M6 that were added in as Doom 2 MAP10.

The chaingun secret near the start is missing, the megasphere secret is different, the secrets inside the fuel tanks are missing, and so are the secrets all around those UAC cubicle things. The exit looks a bit different the ceiling lights in that one big room look wrong too. I'd have to look at that map in an editor to tell you what the exact difference is though.

Huh, so they tried to do the Super Shotgun early on. I've always wondered about its origin. So maybe it's just a heavily modified graphic of the normal shotgun, though I still theorize the static sprite is actually a screengrab from Evil Dead II. Granted, I'm sure someone here has the real story.

40oz said:

Some of the captions for some of the pictures have questions in them, is that to get conversation started, or do you really not know?

edit: To be more clear, the question about E1M6/MAP10 there are a ton of secrets missing from beta E1M6 that were added in as Doom 2 MAP10.

The chaingun secret near the start is missing, the megasphere secret is different, the secrets inside the fuel tanks are missing, and so are the secrets all around those UAC cubicle things. The exit looks a bit different the ceiling lights in that one big room look wrong too. I'd have to look at that map in an editor to tell you what the exact difference is though.

The question for MAP10 is asking if there are differences over the already known alpha version, not if there are differences from release which is obvious at a glance (and yes several have been identified so far, so it does represent an intermediate version).

Quasar, but would it be cool if I put these on a Cutting Room Floor article, sourced back to your album? I mean, you posted them publicly, but I don't want to do it without asking first, especially if there's a chance of getting anyone in trouble.

Dragonsbrethren said:

Quasar, but would it be cool if I put these on a Cutting Room Floor article, sourced back to your album? I mean, you posted them publicly, but I don't want to do it without asking first, especially if there's a chance of getting anyone in trouble.

TCRF is usually for content that was *in* an actual game, isn't it? I wasn't aware they have articles for content totally left out but released on its own later. Is there precedent for it that you know of? If they're cool with it, then I have no room to really say boo. It should be made very clear that the content in question was never in the game, though.

this picture said:
"This looks like the final version of E1M3, but I can't be sure there aren't any differences."

I've opened E1M3 in DB, overlayed the pictures and kept changing view order and staring at the pictures at least for 15 minutes and couldn't spot any differences, so I'm pretty sure that it is the final E1M3, unless there's a difference in tags/flags/actions/thing types that we cannot see. :)

They have their own set of rules for what belongs to a pre-release page: https://tcrf.net/Help:Contents/Prerelease_Rules_%26_Guidelines
Obviously, their purpose is to document exactly these sort of things.

Quasar said:

Nothing here is fake and I'm insulted by the insinuation, though I'll forgive it. As the most active administrator of the Doom Wiki, you should realize I take Doom history seriously to a degree that might frighten some people.

Either way, these files came directly from a reliable source with access to development resources. I'm not naming my contact because I don't want that person getting in any trouble. They were retrieved from a backup image of one of the NeXT development servers.

There's quite a bit of healthy debate going on over who designed the initial MAP28. I still feel it COULD be Tom, venturing outside his usual layout scheme (maybe right before they announced he was fired, for example). Or, it could easily be a fast rough out by Sandy, which he determined was too dominated by hallways and then proceeded to drag his main centerpiece rooms around at random and reconnect them with more varied architecture. Who knows. Maybe send the image to Tom and Sandy and ask them who made it.

Just don't start flinging accusations around. I sat on this stuff for two months to make sure the person who gave it to me wasn't going to get to do his/her own release of the material first. It seems that's not going to happen at this point.

I didn't mean say this was fake or accuse you of anything, I just meant to say that I briefly entertained the thought but discarded it because there's no way the rest of it (I.E the blob) could be fake. I apologize if I came across as sinister, that wasn't my intent :c

With no intentions to offend anyone, I think we could use this stuff to be in the Doomwiki first before TCRF

Doom needs wall monsters, that move along walls, throwing acid blobs at you.

IMX said:

With no intentions to offend anyone, I think we could use this stuff to be in the Doomwiki first before TCRF

The map shots are not of the quality we accept and we usually don't allow resource extracts (a few exceptions have been made lately, but they are not the rule).

Quasar said:

The map shots are not of the quality we accept and we usually don't allow resource extracts (a few exceptions have been made lately, but they are not the rule).

Really? That's stupid.

i'm impressed. i learned something about DOOM today. There's probably a ton I don't even know and I've been playing for like 20 years or so? On another note I just noticed I reached the ten year mark on Doomworld.

Technician said:

Really? That's stupid.

Wait, which part of not preferring to get sued for copyright violation is stupid? The wiki is meant to be based on open content to the greatest extent possible, and utilizing fair use resources where there is only both the need and clear justification. Since moving off wikia, this stuff falls square on me, largely, as well as manc. This is why we don't allow ubiquitous resource ripping - if we did, most of the IWADs would have been uploaded by now.

For maps, we just prefer the clean style of OMGIFOL or SLADE where it's available. Since nobody has these versions of the maps I might make an exception - I am currently planning on adding articles for the alpha/beta versions of map (as well as articles for their console versions), so, I'll reconsider those when that rolls around.

Quasar said:

For maps, we just prefer the clean style of OMGIFOL or SLADE where it's available.

I'd like those maps to be hidden as spoilers, because they really give away the level. On the other hand, I shouldn't be visiting those pages in the first place if I didn't want surprises ruined…

Quasar said:

Wait, which part of not preferring to get sued for copyright violation is stupid?

...Since nobody has these versions of the maps

Most of those layouts could be reproduced fairly accurately in order to take map shots, suppose it depends on how close is good enough for the wiki.

That blob monster is honestly pretty cool. Would be interesting to see something like that having a Half-Life barnacle style "attaching to the ceilings" vibe going on.

Another thing of minor note, the jagged wall in the "outside" section of the 0.5 E1M1 is simplified compared to the alpha.

I really wonder if we're looking at an early Warrens there. The added monster closets are similar and that looks to be a Cyberdemon in the exit room...

StevieCybernetik said:

That blob monster is honestly pretty cool. Would be interesting to see something like that having a Half-Life barnacle style "attaching to the ceilings" vibe going on.

Too bad doomguy can't look up.

Quasar said:

The map shots are not of the quality we accept and we usually don't allow resource extracts (a few exceptions have been made lately, but they are not the rule).

Is this for official maps only? I think a few map shots use Fredrik's python util (might not be python, some script language)

Szymanski said:

Is this for official maps only? I think a few map shots use Fredrik's python util (might not be python, some script language)

Quasar said:

For maps, we just prefer the clean style of OMGIFOL or SLADE where it's available.

OMGIFOL is Fredrik's python util.

Speaking of SLADE, it has a couple issues with its map generator. For one, the lines are not thick enough so at any scaling down, they're very pale and hard to see. This has bad implications for the wiki, where images on articles are *always* scaled down. The other issue (less of one, though time consuming to deal with) is that it always generates with a transparent background. If white were an option, that would be great.

Think I should make these official feature requests?

I'd love both of those. Another thing that would be really nice for map comparisons would be an option to export at a fixed scale, rather than always scaling the map up to whatever image size preference you have set.

As it is, I'm thinking map editor shots are better for comparisons just because I have control over the scale I'm taking them at. I love how clean SLADE's output looks, but it makes for lousy comparisons when the map side changes significantly between versions.

Quasar said:

Speaking of SLADE, it has a couple issues with its map generator. For one, the lines are not thick enough so at any scaling down, they're very pale and hard to see. This has bad implications for the wiki, where images on articles are *always* scaled down. The other issue (less of one, though time consuming to deal with) is that it always generates with a transparent background. If white were an option, that would be great.

Think I should make these official feature requests?

Dragonsbrethren said:

I'd love both of those. Another thing that would be really nice for map comparisons would be an option to export at a fixed scale, rather than always scaling the map up to whatever image size preference you have set.

As it is, I'm thinking map editor shots are better for comparisons just because I have control over the scale I'm taking them at. I love how clean SLADE's output looks, but it makes for lousy comparisons when the map side changes significantly between versions.

Before you do make official feature requests, take a look at some of the advanced options...

Preferences->Interface->Colours & Theme, Map Image Export section. You can change the RGB and opacity of each color there.

map_image_height and map_image_width correspond to the size. If you use a negative value, it'll be used as a fraction of the map's actual physical dimensions (so a map that's 16000 map units wide, with a width of -5, will result in an image 3200 pixels wide).

map_image_thickness is for line thickness.

Gez said:

map_image_height and map_image_width correspond to the size. If you use a negative value, it'll be used as a fraction of the map's actual physical dimensions (so a map that's 16000 map units wide, with a width of -5, will result in an image 3200 pixels wide).

map_image_thickness is for line thickness.

I assume these latter options are console only?

EDIT: Never mind, I discovered the Advanced Settings ;)

Rough approximation of what that first map segment might have looked like:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85021129/e2m8beta.wad

Note that there's one obstacle missing from the map as it would've been preventing the player from moving anywhere and the one box in the cyberdemon room doesn't do anything, since I can't think of what it was possibly used for.

Anyway, if it was to play anything like this then no wonder it was discarded :P

Not bad for a first attempt, though the final room's a bit longer than it should be.


EDIT - I think I've pretty much nailed the second maps layout.


(1920x1200 - 328k)

GreyGhost said:

Not bad for a first attempt, though the final room's a bit longer than it should be.


EDIT - I think I've pretty much nailed the second maps layout.
(1920x1200 - 328k)

That's pretty close to the attempt I had, but the three diagonal monster slots (not entirely sure it's big enough to be a closet) were making my life difficult.

What are you thinking for the gameplay? I think it might benefit from a key at the other end of the monster-slot corridor in order to justify the divergent paths. Secret sectors on the metal-floored part of the hellish lava cave and that little nook off the south-central room, perhaps?

Heh - haven't given gameplay a thought. So long a my meager efforts match the layout in Quasar's editor shots I don't much care if they're full of archviles and have STARTAN on every wall. ;)

Almost makes me wish I was half-decent at Doom editing myself. I can knock out a decent UE4 level in half an hour, but SLADE takes me a while longer. It's maintaining the same level of quality with the limited textures and 2.5D engine that causes me trouble. Studying game design is all well and good, but the theory is not designed for back-porting. Labyrinthine levels like DOOM's are considered a cardinal sin a lot of the time, which is a damn shame; there's a lost art to fitting so much in such a small space.

Still, throw a red door in there - maybe just before those last two rooms, where Xaser's remake had the panel that closed behind you - and a few triggers for the monster closets at, say, the pool room's entrance and the red key's sector and you'd be well away.

Please excuse my enthusiasm. This is one of the last official-ish Doom levels that I've never seen a playable version of. It'd be fun to have.