Blind Alley 8, "Retribution"

Gene,

I enjoyed your demo. :)


Here's a UV Max in 5:23. UPDATE: Check the DSDA for an improved 5:05.

Bndaly8.wad (newstuff) was recorded using legacy 1.40.

ba8rs523.zip

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Great! 2 for the price of one, so to speak. :)

hmm, let me guess... ssg, rl, and maybe a plasma gun at the end? :D
Gotta love that DOOM2-mapmakingstyle that Gene has. sure to please.
more directly, I look forward to these demos.

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Rich for gosh sakes! 5:23? how the heck did you do that? that is way faster than what I thought was a good run. Wow thanks! Makes me wonder if I made that map way to easy now. ;)

Opulent, yep you will find my map making style has continued even on this old map. I guess that means I have been doing that for a long time now. I orig started this map in 1997 using deep 97. I have played it a bunch over the years and recently decided it was probably ok to share it. So made a few texture changes and such and there you go.

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I've been playing this map a fair bit today (I'm doing /newstuff Chronicles this week), and think that 5:23 must have taken quite a bit of work, to say the least.

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Grazza said:

I've been playing this map a fair bit today (I'm doing /newstuff Chronicles this week), and think that 5:23 must have taken quite a bit of work, to say the least.



Thanks for watching the lmp. :) Gene's maps are always fun to play.

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Here's a UV Pacifist (2:35). At least I think it counts as a pacifist, since you've no choice but to cross the linedef that triggers the crusher.

If it's not a true pacifist run, then it's a very weird and rather slow UV Speed. :p

bnd8p235.zip

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technically, that is not pacifist.
but (as with plutonia map11 demos not being max -- since you can't kill all 4 archviles with 2 bfg shots before dying) if you do what you can to qualify, then it counts in my book.
I sent a speedrun of my own to Searcher.... but I couldn't reach my 1:00 goal. =/

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Shame - that means you'd need to avoid triggering that linedef to have a chance of it being true pacifist. I'm not sure how feasible that is, but it would certainly make it no fun to record.

Anyway, if it's OK in your book, I'm happy.

One minute? Heh, sounds good.

BTW, I also tried Tyson, and died needlessly while pistoling the last monster. :(

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Heh, Grazza, I just watched your pacifist demo, good stuff.
As for the map itself, it reminds me a whole lot of a good old fashioned 1998 or so Doom2 level :)

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DEMOn said:

technically, that is not pacifist.
but (as with plutonia map11 demos not being max -- since you can't kill all 4 archviles with 2 bfg shots before dying) if you do what you can to qualify, then it counts in my book.
I sent a speedrun of my own to Searcher.... but I couldn't reach my 1:00 goal. =/


I was on the team that developed the pacifist rules and it was never the intent to prevent anyone from doing a demo. We used the example of accidental telefrags in the writeup for this title to show there are situations that cannot be controlled. In the draft it was stated:

"Pacifist style is finishing a DOOM level in Ultra-Violence without harming any monster. That is: no boxing, chainsawing or shooting at monsters, not even shooting barrels that do explode next to monsters, not even pressing switches that activate crushers harming monsters. But it is allowed to make the monsters fight each others, if they are so stupid and agressive, well that's their problem. Note: Even a pacifist cannot always avoid telefrags."

Remember, this was created for Doom and Doom2. I don't recall if there are any similar circumstances in these two Iwads.

I'm not positive but I believe it doesn't mention crossing linedefs because the situation didn't present itself at that time. Obviously I'm not the author but, IMO, I would add to that: "If you have no other choice then it is permitted to cross a linedef/trigger that may activate a monster crusher". Otherwise, if the rules prohibit recording a demo, then the title has no practical value.

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well put.
the compet-n rules are clear about "the player cannot intentionally cause harm to any monsters"
this would include telefrags and linedefs that activate crushers.
but obviously, functionally, it would be best to allow demos that do "everything possible not to harm any monsters"
that is pacifist to me.
the original rules (DHT, I assume) are not the same as the Compet-n rules.
Doom2 map07 can never be done pacifist, but I don't see why bndaly8 can't be allowed.
I completely agree with Rich, that truly indirect and unavoidable damage should be allowed.

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That makes sense to me. There will always be marginal cases with pacifist runs, of course.

Funny, I was trying to recall another pacifist where there was unavoidable crushing of monsters. I could have sworn I once saw one on HR map06, but there is no sign of such a demo existing. Surely I didn't imagine it? Or maybe it was uploaded to compet-n, but was disallowed, and consequently deleted.

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Here's a UV Fast Max (6:01). Second exit; could go a lot faster. I died quite a lot at the start.

Edit: Replaced with a 5:20. There's a nice red-screen surprise near the end, when a bunch of revenant fireballs finally catch up with me.

bnd8f520.zip

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well ive had a few practise runs and my best is about 7:30 ... shiiit ... my main time waster is the bloody mountains of revenants and barons/knights in the first big outdoor area, takes ages to shift them and infighting doesnt seem to help. oh well, once more into the breach!

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cycloid said:

well ive had a few practise runs and my best is about 7:30 ... shiiit ... my main time waster is the bloody mountains of revenants and barons/knights in the first big outdoor area, takes ages to shift them and infighting doesnt seem to help. oh well, once more into the breach!


My best time is a 5:05 which might be posted on the DSDA this weekend. The only way I could get that was to bypass fighting anything when I first teleported into that large outdoor area.

Once you get there you have to enter a 'wall' door to your right which is triggered by a switch on the opposite side of where you transported in. As you well know, the switch lowers the barricade blocking this entrance. By the time you finish killing everything in that room/area you transport out and you'll find most of bad guys off to your left all packed together.

Good luck!

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yer, i was loosing sleep over the best route last night and think i've got it figured, heh. my best time last night came down to about 6:50. thought i'll be "adapting" a couple of the techniques i've seen in the demos up here already, naturally :-)

edit: what's "DSDA" precious?

edit 2: got it down to a whopping 6:30. most of the small amounts of time i loose are down to imps etc not bloody dieing from ssg blasts. bah. and i still dont get anywhere near as much infighting as in that 5:20 recording. i also lose time:

1. clearing the hell knights in the first area in the cages

2. the baron in the small outdoor area (i even save some rockets just for him now!)

3. the seargent/lift/switch bit. never seem to get that right, except the ones where i die! heh

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DOOMed Speed Demos Archive:
http://www.doomworld.com/sda/doom_sda.htm
It is a sad DOOM knock-off of the Quake SDA.
(the DSDA may suck as a website, but there are 100's of awesome demos there)

sounds like you got this maxdemo figured out. I can't speak for the others, but I think you should post it. :)

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i can NOT do it in a time less than 6:30ish,. bloody hell. i fucking hate revenants and their heat seeking bloody fucking missiles. i also despise imps that refuse to die despite a million ssg shots and just get in the way argh... i've been trying for about two hours and think i exited 3 or 4 times. heres my 62nd, and final effort (for today) for you lot to critique.

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cycloid said:

edit 2: got it down to a whopping 6:30. most of the small amounts of time i loose are down to imps etc not bloody dieing from ssg blasts. bah. and i still dont get anywhere near as much infighting as in that 5:20 recording.

Remember that my 5:20 was with fast monsters. That makes a large difference - infighting goes a lot faster, but the player is in far greater danger, forcing significant differences in strategy. On straight UV, infighting generally needs to be supervised, encouraged and assisted more, and the player can afford to be far braver.

DSDA certainly doesn't suck as a website - content is king, after all. I agree with Opulent when he says that you should show us your 6:30. I don't think that is a bad time to get, and there is no point flogging yourself too much to bring it down a bit further (unless you're enjoying doing so, of course). There are plenty of other good maps out there, and maybe you'll revisit this map at some point in the future and find you can improve your time by a large margin.

Edit: I see that you did so while I was taking ages to type this message.

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I'm afraid that demo (bnd8-630) desynched for me (you die at the yellow key). It doesn't appear to be a Doom2.exe-compatible demo. Analysing it with LMPC gives the following header:

# DOOM LMP file:            bnd8-630.lmp
# Number of players:        2
# Total play time:          3:01.74m
# Number of game tics:      6361

HeaderStart
 Game:         DOOM
 Version:      
 Skill:        30
 Episode:      77
 Map:          66
 Player0:      0        # green player
 Player1:      1        # indigo player
 MultiRule:    70
 Respawn:      230
ViewOfPlayer: 3
HeaderEnd
This looks like Boom(?), MBF or regular prboom. Are you sure you put "-complevel 1" in your command line? If you don't put that (or some other complevel setting), it will default to whatever is given as the default in your prboom.cfg or glboom.cfg (which will be -1 unless you have changed it).

Note that if you use "-complevel -1" (i.e. prboom's default settings), then the monsters behave differently, amongst other things.

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that was the wrong demo, oops, i die right at the end, i was going by file size, i'll dig out a real demo ... i've a 6:33 that's 99% kills, i lost a lot of time in the crusher room going round and round as i lost a lot of health and needed the megasphere right there, that cost me about 12 seconds. and i wasnt grouping the monsters very well in the main outdoor area, too busy running away from the bloody revenant rockets...

i didnt realise those 5:xx demos were -fast dohhh

.. 10 mins later ..

ok found one, number 27 of 63 .. i'm 27 years old, odd that. was 6:36 ... disection

1. autoweapon changed to shotgun after i tripped over one mid revenant battle, v annoying

2. lost 4 seconds because i missed the sarge on the lift the first time past

3. picked up the beserk/soulsphere in the wrong order, could have been a lethal mistake but thankfully wasnt!

4. i think i should have been shotgunning and not chaingunning most of the time in the main outdoor area

5. missed the fucking door = 9 seconds lost going round again!

6. the final revenant in the caged building used up a lot of time/attention and i should have grabbed the key during my charging about and not have made a seperate trip to do it

7. one of those bloody invincible imps in the same caged bit cost me about 3 seconds at the end when i should have been launching myself at the exit

lost that's easy to account for: 4 + 9 + 3 = 16 ... result 6:20 .... reckon i can do it in 6 flat?


edit: it wont seem to let me attatch my other demo?

my compatibility level in prboom is -1, should it be 1 ?

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cycloid said:

i didnt realise those 5:xx demos were -fast dohhh

Only my 5:20 was -fast. The others are straight UV Max. UV -fast Max is generally slower than UV Max, since the greater caution more than counterbalances the faster infighting. My point was that you can't expect the infighting to go as smoothly without -fast monsters.

Sorry if I caused any unnecessary confusion.

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cycloid said:

edit: it wont seem to let me attatch my other demo?

I think you were trying to replace it at the same time I was trying to approve it.

my compatibility level in prboom is -1, should it be 1 ?

Yes. For a full explanation of compatibility levels, see the document README.compat.txt, which is part of the prboom package. But if you just want to record demos that are compatible with the original game, all you need to know is to put "-complevel 1" in your command line (and perhaps make that the default in your .cfg files, in case you ever forget).

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ello, yeah we were kinda posting back and forth at the same time. heh. er. from what i gather from that text file compatibility 0 is pure doom. but 1 is standard then? i dont want to be recording with doom2.exe as i'd have to learn to use my fingers the old way again. interestingly i completed quake 1 using doom keybinds with a few duke nukem up/dowm ones too (pgup/pgdowm) when i try those keys nowadays i get cramp real quick!

anyway i need peops to watch my demo and let me know where i can pick up time and such. what with me being a total newbie runner!

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0 is not yet implemented, and (if/when added) will be for compatibility with doom version 1.2 (this is doom.exe only - IIRC, the earliest version of Doom2 was 1.666).

For many years, the standard version with which to record demos has been 1.9; -complevel 1 emulates that version.

[edit]The above information is false, and only applies to prboom 2.2.3. For prboom 2.2.4, it is -complevel 0 that emulates Doom2.exe. -complevel 1 is similar, but not identical.[/edit]

Note that you don't need to worry about this when watching a demo - the program automatically detects what type of demo it is. It only matters when recording.

I watched your 6:36 demo - it played back OK. Maybe there wasn't as much infighting as there should have been; the enhanced AI might be the cause of that. Otherwise, I suppose you just need to group the monsters better, and never let the SSG cool down (i.e. fire at every opportunity, making sure that there is something juicy in your sights every time it is ready to fire). Try not to lose time when killing monsters - yes, easier said than done, I know... I assume you've read the "What makes a good Max?" thread; Ryback's post in particular is full of good advice.

I've attached my best UV Max so far, in case you want to pick up any ideas from it.

bnd8-456.zip

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hmz, it doesnt LOOK that much different to my route apart from you happily launch past hordes of monsters instead of picking them off one by one. which could just be difference in style. i did a 7:00 flat last night on my first and only attempt... while very drunk. so the technuiqes firmly embedded in my brain, heh. i'll start playing on comp 1 and see how it goes :-)

edit: just had a quick go on -compatibility 1 and ... 5:22. the ssg seems to be much better at actually killing things too, heh. didnt record it though.. i'm off for a walk to the beach and then i'll have a proper go tonight!

cheers for the helpful help, now i just need to open a can of whoppass on your time :-)

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cycloid said:

just had a quick go on -compatibility 1 and ... 5:22.

Nice!

now i just need to open a can of whoppass on your time :-)

Be my guest; what better advert for this forum? "8 out of 10 visitors to the Demos Forum achieved 30% better times within a week". ;)

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bloody hell:

1. autopickupweaponchange to standard shotgun while shooting at revenants

2. revenants generally

...account for 95% of my failed attempts

it's taken me hours, my best was a 5:06 but that desyncs on playback for some reason, so this is a 5:10. i think i've got the route down though.

bnd8-510.zip

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