Eternal demos [-complevel 2]

j4rio said:

map 1 in 4:01


Below 4 would certainly be nice, but good job!

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j4rio said:

Those who have already bothered to watch may not be aware of the edit.

That is not an excuse for using the forum as your personal map progress log.

j4rio said:

Besides, it's not like there is a flood of fresh demos, isn't it?

That's precisely my point. We could all create a flood of "fresh" demos by dumping our first exits here, followed by seconds, thirds and so on, but who would benefit from from that? What's the value of a demo if you can improve it easily yourself within hours, repeatedly?
I can't figure out if you (and a couple other newer posters) do it for the postcount or the "derp factor" but this spam is annoying and has got to stop.

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That's a nice blunt way to put it. Besides these and a little bit of ng15 spam (which I heartedly admitted), I haven't posted any series of improved-in-a-row demos.


I'm offended.



btw 13 max in 2:39 (stay tooned for another 20 exits)

eternallmap13max.zip

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Ah, another retarded "do it my way or else" argument by Never Again. Personally, I often see much less value in non-TAS demos where the amount of attempts/time spent is disproportionately high compared to the actual length of the demo, but instead of crying about it like some do (look at me I said "some" instead of manning up and naming names, being passive aggressive is so awesome you guys) I just sometimes skim over the posts of the people who I know do that and watch demos that interest me more. Like, for example, multiple demos in succession, showing a progression in tactics, routes or even simply luck.

j4rio, please keep these coming and ignore the trolls, rest assured there are people who enjoy your stuff.

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Phml said:

Personally, I often see much less value in non-TAS demos where the amount of attempts/time spent is disproportionately high compared to the actual length of the demo


You just described probably the entire demo recording community. "Disproportionately high" is a subjective value judgment, where one can see anything more than a FDA demo as too much effort, or something like Artem where he spends 40 hours for a one second improvement. What exactly is "disproportionately high?" On a similar note, what is the difference between someone who spends 20 hours playing Doom, but spends only 10 minutes to record something, compared to someone who spends 20 hours recording something that is 10 minutes long? I don't see any difference. No one is a natural-born Doomgod - everything takes effort, one way or another.

No need to be passive aggressive - naming names is cool too. I'm sure I'm one of them, and I'm proud of it. :)

Edit: Just to be clear, I absolutely love any and all maxes of all playing styles. I just don't understand why you would have such bias, prejudice, antipathy, or whatever else you'd want to describe it as, for demos that are recorded a certain way? Demos are purely for entertainment purposes (or so I would think). Example: I don't enjoy watching NM demos, so most of the time, I choose to ignore them. If somehow the recording style of certain players annoys you so much, that with prior knowledge of the player's recording habits, it would instantly affect the enjoyment you derive from said demo, then I completely understand (bizarre as it may be, but we all have our own little quirks). :)

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well.. i don't mind jario's posting sprees, except those first-second exit submissions within an hour. those are dumb. what i do mind is his insane naming convention, or rather lack of any. eternallmap13max.zip are you kidding me. if we all followed this habit, we'd be overwriting demos constantly and where would be that awesome progression you mentioned? i do store his demos, so i have to go into the text file and rename them every single time, which also is what andy is doing at dsda. that is so annoying! i'm not asking for some anally retentive naming convention, i don't mind blob's unconventional way for example. i'm just stressing out over the chore of opening an archive, opening a text file, remembering/copypasting the time, renaming the archive. just because the demo recorder himself is lazy do do it himself and has to post his achievement 8 seconds after exiting, so i don't know what i am looking at. ARGH!

sorry for the mad as hell rant. carry on with demoing.

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Oh wow, I didn't have idea someone bothers to store those dumb demoies... errm I always thought that naming wasn't careworthy, I name them like that so I have a bit less of a mess.

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j4rio said:

Oh wow, I didn't have idea someone bothers to store those dumb demoies... errm I always thought that naming wasn't careworthy, I name them like that so I have a bit less of a mess.


I personally have a folder that's now over 850 megabytes of UV-Max demos...your demo attempts only account for maybe 0.01%, if not less, of that size. So, no worries. :)

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Phml said:

Personally, I often see much less value in non-TAS demos where the amount of attempts/time spent is disproportionately high compared to the actual length of the demo


So, instead of releasing it, one should release fda and couple slower demos before it gets your acceptance? Btw, it's really nice to know that there are people who openly loathes those who work harder making their demos. It must be a real pleasure to have such an audience to record for.

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Bleh finally, 2 hours straight for this crappie. Eugene deserved a better rating than that.

map 2 in 7:29

(named by Eugene's demo, so if this isn't fine, blame him)

et02-729.zip

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The main issue at hand is content management, not the content itself. If somebody enjoys watching successive demos on the same map as soon as they are recorded, more power to him. The problem is the posting button abuse. These forums have rules that explicitly forbid spamming and endless thread bumping and the main reason for these rules' existence is to prevent the forums from turning into huge unnavigable mess.

So it's not about my "retarded" ways (thank you for the compliment, Phml) vs. other posters' freedom to post what and how they like, it's about order and consideration for everyone else vs. cluelessness/carelessness and the chaos that ensues from it.

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@Qaatar- I doubt everyone is like that. gggmork, TOD, j4rio and others have shown they can record good stuff without spending ages on it.

I don't see where I mention I'm annoyed so much by people spending time to do demos. I said I see less value in that. 9 out of 10 is a lower value than 10 out of 10 but is still pretty good. Besides, people can record however they want... Just the same, I'm free to download and watch whatever demos I want out of the ones posted here. I'm just more interested generally in demos more representative of the average playing of the recorder rather than the high end.

If anyone gets their panties in a bunch over that, well... I suggest that hypothetical person should look at why they care about the approval of a random guy on the Internet so much first.

On a more personal note, I don't have anything against you Qaatar and you're certainly not the one I aimed when I said "some are crying". The only one I was talking about was N_A, I thought the context of my post made it clear.

@xepop- don't worry, I don't watch your demos, so I'm not your audience. If believing I have strong enough feelings to loathe you makes you feel better, by all means keep telling yourself that ; and actually I can help with that : your elitist "work and no fun" attitude is one of the reasons I don't bother (watching or recording) with most of the classic wads. See, I really do mildly dislike you- err, I'm sorry, "openly loathe" you. Grr! I am so angry right now! I am now going to punch a sandbag with a xepop face on it!

@Never_Again- switched our stance from "these demos haven't any value" to "it clutters the forums", have we? Seeing as there's about, what, 20 posts per day at most around here, and on the first page topics go as far as the 13th february, I think anyone who isn't afflicted with terminal ADHD is likely to survive the occasionnal 2 or 3 demos in a row. The kind of post that bump threads most and creates clutter is these retarded arguments, so one has to wonder what is your goal here.

Surely if you cared about keeping forums neat (more like dead), you could bring it up to mods or start a discussion on the topic to try to instigate "don't post multiple demos in a row" as a rule rather than play backseat moderator here and there. I guess such a constructive attitude wouldn't let you be a dick to other people, though, so I can see the drawback.

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Phml said:

@xepop- don't worry, I don't watch your demos, so I'm not your audience. If believing I have strong enough feelings to loathe you makes you feel better, by all means keep telling yourself that ; and actually I can help with that : your elitist "work and no fun" attitude is one of the reasons I don't bother (watching or recording) with most of the classic wads. See, I really do mildly dislike you- err, I'm sorry, "openly loathe" you. Grr! I am so angry right now! I am now going to punch a sandbag with a xepop face on it!


Funny that you thought I spoke about myself.

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And with that remark your previous comment just got about a dozen times weirder. I can't fathom why would you care so much about what I think about other people as to twist "I care less" into "I openly loathe". You actually creep me out a little bit, so I hope you don't mind that I might not read other people's posts, but I'm going to run away now.

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What's the point of skimming the best runs even if the work done is "disproportionately high"? It should be more interesting than watching some second exit runs far from optimal.

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Phml said:

@Qaatar- I doubt everyone is like that. gggmork, TOD, j4rio and others have shown they can record good stuff without spending ages on it.

I'm just more interested generally in demos more representative of the average playing of the recorder rather than the high end.

If anyone gets their panties in a bunch over that, well... I suggest that hypothetical person should look at why they care about the approval of a random guy on the Internet so much first.


I think you'd be surprised at how much certain people play compared to the amount of time they spend recording or vice-versa, but that's not something quantifiable in any way. Just extrapolating from what people say about playing habits in forum posts (gggmork saying a couple of years back that he didn't have a life because he played Doom all day, etc), I just don't think it's accurate to judge based on ostensible playing habits.

Don't worry, no one's getting his/her panties in a bunch - as you may know with me already, I just enjoy discussing random crap about demo recording processes. I openly acknowledge that I'm not as good of a player as TOD or ggg. J4 and you might be better than I am, but I don't know nor do I care.

I think at the bottom of this, your mindset revolves around demos as some sort of a display of skill rather than just entertainment. After my lengthy and ridiculously retarded discussion with myk a few months back about demo recording, I've since stopped caring about any of that shit. Back then, I would be upset too, if the demos of certain people revolved around higher end play that is not truly representative of their normal skill levels.

However, demo recording itself contains a ton of variance and luck, where many variables are beyond the player's control. For example, I don't think of Artem's playing style as a method to disingeniously portray his real skill level, but rather to flawlessly show off a certain route the way that it was intended. Sure, he could achieve the same goals using TAS, but I think his pride and mentality wouldn't allow for that. Perhaps that's also what you're against?

At the end of the day, if you devalue demos due to obfuscation of skill level representation, I have nothing against that. Since our community is so small around here, everyone's opinion counts for something - so no, you're not just some random guy on the internet in this forum. :)

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Sorry for breaking your highly cultular flame summit, guys,
but I just want to post some demo here. :|

m01 UV Max - 3:47

Thanks to j4rio for good strategy.
Time below 3:30 is achievable, I think.

et01-347.zip

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I don't particularly want to increase the number of posts here that are not related to Eternal demos (I may split this branch to keep the thread clean), but I can understand how this can happen - I did it myself a couple of times when I was fairly new to recording.

Sometimes you'll record a demo, and feel that you're unlikely to improve it any time soon, and therefore upload it. But then you have an idea, or just out of inertia play the map again. You quickly make an improvement, and again feel that you're unlikely to improve it any time soon. And so you have a series of little improvements that you make public. It's desirable to avoid this, but it can happen without it being planned that way. Try not to make a habit of it (with experience it tends to happen less often), but I don't think we should criticize people too much if they do this unintentionally.

The opposite, i.e. failing to upload a good demo just because you think you might improve it at some point in the future (but don't get around to it!), is certainly less good for the demo community.

Clearly it is not a good idea to upload a slew of random exits from a recording session when you do intend to improve each demo as soon as you have uploaded it. If you want to show how you have worked on a demo, then putting them in the same zip would be appropriate - much as some players will put a bunch of failed attempts in with their successful one.

Phml (and NA): please be less abrasive. Generally speaking this is a very friendly forum, and it's nice to keep it that way. A more measured choice of words can keep a discussion friendly while making your point more clearly. Making a polite suggestion is more likely to bring someone around to your point of view than hitting them with a stick!

dew said:

insane naming convention, or rather lack of any

Actually, the trend towards random naming was the basic reason I stopped updating the autoloading patterns.

Never_Again said:

These forums have rules that explicitly forbid spamming and endless thread bumping

This isn't quite what these rules are targeting, and the Demos forum does explicitly relax the rule about bumping threads, in the case of posting relevant demos. Normally when someone is considered to be "spamming", they are making vacuous posts in quick succession in a whole bunch of threads. Recording demos and then posting them is a little different. It clearly involves much more effort, and is a good deal more constructive.

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Hitherto said:
m01 UV Max - 3:47


awesome :)
I only reached 3:5X with missing monster or two before, so this one will be tough to take over. I wonder if someone could claim time faster than Andy's tas.


map 14 max (yeah, 14, AGAIN, holy crap!!1!) in 5:50

et14-550.zip

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j4rio said:

I wonder if someone could claim time faster than Andy's tas.


Should be quite possible, yes. Back in 2003 for maps 01-03, Andy used TasDooM. MAP04 onwards, it appears he switched to the replay editor, which resulted in a large increase in optimization. I don't think it's even close to humanly possible to improve upon those demos without TAS. :)

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I was in Eternal mood after playing reternal.wad. (great three-level demo, can't wait to see more maps). Here is the result:

Map18 UV-Max in 4:59
Not too fast, but a decent improvement over the old record, there is some cool moments and I like the time. :)

et18-459.zip

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hai gaiz wuts goin on in this thred?

For serious. If someone wants to beat my et13-max record by 1 second, and it's a "first exit" kinda deal, whatever. I don't personally care.

However, I thought I'd do something different with the same map. Enjoy.

Pretty sure this is optimal.

et13-007.zip

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Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, just to add to the "flame war" in the above posts, thought I'd get this uploaded... have a recording that took me about 5 minutes in attempts and is most likely an optimal video.

Now no one wins the argument. <3

en13-007.zip

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Yo Altima, I didn't mean anything personal when I took over that hyper-awesome map. :))

map 1 max 3:42

glad to have this one back

et01-342.zip

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j4rio: Dude, I couldn't care about that map. I did try for 2:38 but that map sucks so much I couldn't bear to get below 2:41. I didn't take it personal, more power to you on beating it =)

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