Community Chest Series Demos [Boom, -complevel 9]

Improved my map 29 UV-Max. Broke the 30 minute barrier by a good margin. Time for the run is 28:35, almost 5 minutes faster.

Attaching the demo now.

c3292835.zip

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The rest of UV-Max undone are map 9, map 18 and map 24. (and map 25 which is Aleaver's request) Will anyone play them?

My map 4 run and my map 11 run are a little awful, so I will redo them. Also, I will retry map 17 to get below 8 min. I don't intend to play maps undone. However, it depend on the situation from now on.


Btw, 15 years of Doom, congratulations!

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@tatsurd:
I'm interested in recording maxes for maps 09, 24 and 25 particularly, and I could see myself giving 18 a shot, but I'm busy with exams at the moment and so won't have much time to record for the next 9 days or so.

If nobody wants to do them, I'll get around to it before too long. Otherwise I'll try to make improvements where I see fit, and help finish off the speedruns, of course. I haven't forgotten that I still have some more demos to record on map 19, either.

By the way, map 12 hasn't been maxed yet, since I believe that Rottking missed some monsters when he recorded his demo (not counting the unobtainable kills of course).

I'll be very impressed if you manage to get map 17 below 8 mins, but it shouldn't be hard to beat my time at least... :)

I like your link.

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@justanotherfool: you have absolutely no chance to beat my map19 demo by even a second!!! (isn't that reverse psychology so much obvious? :-D)

@Anima: Great map29 demos! UV Speed there would be great.

I am interested for recording on map24 too but I haven't found a way to reach BFG secret ... and unfortunately don't have much free time to play. Map18 would be great too but also harder to find the best route since the map is very unlinear - but excellent!

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I'm still hoping somebody does CC2 map 24 now that there is a fix for the broken switch...

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@emailking: Yeah, it would be nice to see it done, but the problem is that there's so little ammo in the level that it seems to be impossible to kill everything.
I think Anima recorded a speedrun though, which can probably be found in the CC2 demopack thread.

EDIT: Incidentally, I have a question about lost souls and UV-Max. I know they don't contribute to the kill percentage at least in prboom and zdoom (and I would expect the same to hold for vanilla), so does this mean that you can neglect to kill any lost souls that may have been placed in the level and still have a legitimate maxdemo? What about lost souls from PEs and monsters that have been resurrected by archviles? Can those be ignored?

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Yes, yes, no. Accepted standards are that all resurrected monsters must be dead by the end of the level (unless originally spawned by a monster spawner), and there are no requirements to kill any lost souls regardless of origin.

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according to Compet-N rule:
UV-max: finishing a level as fast as possible in Ultra-Violence, killing every monster at least once, except lost souls, and with 100% secrets.


You only have to follow kills/secret HUD.

In case of ZDoom, lost souls are included in Kills, the way Kills is calculated differ from vanilla Doom, so the rule can't adapt to ZDoom. And, I don't know rules of ZDoom.

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Yeah, I don't know when it was changed, but newer versions of ZDoom include lost souls in the kill count, like tatsurd said. When a monster is resurrected in ZDoom, it adds one to the monster total, so I don't think you can get more than 100% kills? So I think for ZDoom the rule should be kill everything, including lost souls. But then there's also Thing_Spawn. If that action is used somewhere in the map and you can avoid activating it somehow, you can prevent some monsters from spawning yet still get 100% kills, since they don't count towards kill percentage until they are spawned. A rule would be nice, but maybe it might depend on the map.

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The Compet-N "rule" is not sufficient to define what max is currently.

First of all, if you take it literally, then maps like Plutonia 27 and HR 26 do not allow a max run to be completed. Yet we have accepted max runs for these maps. No map with a monster spawner would be possible unless you could end the level before anything spawned. So yes, there defintiely have to be accepted rules that are map based if all maps are to have a possible max run.

Moreover, even though it reads that everything must be killed at least once, it has come to be anyway that revived monsters must be killed.

That rule used to say 100% kills were but you had to kill the cyberdemon in map29, apparently to disallow using an arch-vile revival to get out of killing the cyberdemon. But it doesn't read that way anymore.

Since all demos are accepted here and compet-n is functionally dead, I suppose it is subjective.

One issue with requiring lost souls to be killed is that there may be some stuck in the walls, which kills the run. But I'm guessing Zdoom may prevent this. So perhaps not.

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The max-kills rule, practically speaking, is to exit with all the accountable, reachable, map-spawned monsters dead. This means that:

* Lost souls don't count
* Monsters that are not accessible do not count
* Monsters resurrected by arch-viles must be dead
* Monsters spawned by the final boss don't count

Since all demos are accepted here and compet-n is functionally dead, I suppose it is subjective.

You can record whatever you want, but since thousands of demos use certain rules, it's much better for comparative purposes and clarity to stick to certain pre-existing things that have been established. You can't start from a clean slate as if we hadn't been playing this game for 15 years. It's not just a "COMPET-N rule", as the DSDA and these forums have been using the same standard of "max kills" for a long time.

Also, COMPET-N is frozen, not "functionally dead", as people record demos for it (hence it's not dead).

One issue with requiring lost souls to be killed is that there may be some stuck in the walls, which kills the run. But I'm guessing Zdoom may prevent this. So perhaps not.

Yes, plus the engine (Doom or Boom) does not count them, so generally you can't tell if they are all dead (even without complications like end bosses and arch-viles). ZDoom kills any souls spawned in the void and counts lost souls, thus ZDoom has different max rules. Lost souls count when recording a ZDoom max demo.

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It's interesting how the interpretation of what makes a valid Compet-N demo has gradually become tighter and tighter. There are still exceptions though, the most obvious I can think of would have to be HR23 maxkill demos. The earliest demos used a slow route where the player killed all the imps at the start, then moved on. Later demopacks sped this up by running past the imps to collect heavier weapons. This triggers an arachnotron teleporter, but the teleporter line is one time only and at this point the imps are still blocking the teleport line so most of the arachnotrons never teleport in.

This wasn't a problem in the demopack, and when Compet-N was opened to pwads it apparently wasn't a problem either. The time has since been improved on the same route, which still wasn't a problem. Technically you could say it's a map design fault, since the teleport line should be reusable, but at the same time these aren't really maxkill demos, since it is possible to kill every monster if you choose your route appropriately.

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emailking said:

Moreover, even though it reads that everything must be killed at least once, it has come to be anyway that revived monsters must be killed.

I understand it. And, I did it on all my demos at least.

emailking said:

The Compet-N "rule" is not sufficient to define what max is currently.

First of all, if you take it literally, then maps like Plutonia 27 and HR 26 do not allow a max run to be completed. Yet we have accepted max runs for these maps. No map with a monster spawner would be possible unless you could end the level before anything spawned. So yes, there defintiely have to be accepted rules that are map based if all maps are to have a possible max run.

Certainly we have to remember that such maps are the exceptions. However, Compet-N rule can adapt to most of maps, it is necessary to add "Monsters resurrected by arch-viles must be dead" though.
Therefore if I'm asked, "What is UV-Max?", I would say so.

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Max is clearly defined. The compet-n rules (with clarifications) set standards that the demo community has traditionally followed and, when desired, expanded upon.

Yes, there was an ambiguity in the compet-n rules, but AdamH clarified it: revived monsters must be rekilled.

If there are unkillable monsters, then they can be left alive.

If it is very difficult to kill everything due to lack of ammo or near-inaccessible monsters, then the demo with least left alive counts as Max until someone demonstrates that it is possible to kill more.

And lost souls need never be killed, regardless of how the engine you are using counts them.

Obviously, snyone can define new or modified categories, but it would be sensible in this instance to use distinctive naming for them.

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Grazza said:
And lost souls need never be killed, regardless of how the engine you are using counts them.

Obviously, snyone can define new or modified categories, but it would be sensible in this instance to use distinctive naming for them.

Well, I agree with most of what you said, but in respect to lost souls, there you'd just be adding a complication by not making them mandatory when the engine counts them, hence I'd say that in Doom v1.2 or in newer ZDoom demos, for example, they must be killed. You don't need to call the demos something other than "max" because the difference is defined (and made explicit) by the engine and version. It's not an arbitrary change to the category because it depends on how the engine works.

Perhaps we don't even disagree, if you consider mentioning the engine (and version) "distinctive naming".

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Just a random comment:
I have a rule that every living monster, excluding unreachable monsters like the "arch-vile - chaingunner-combo" in plutonia 27, besides lost souls must be killed.

In other words, lost souls can survive, everything else must be killed.

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z0diac said:

Just a random comment:
I have a rule that every living monster, excluding unreachable monsters like the "arch-vile - chaingunner-combo" in plutonia 27, besides lost souls must be killed.

In other words, lost souls can survive, everything else must be killed.


But you have to add spawned monsters to this (and revived spawned monsters), as they're very much reachable.

And even for something like plutonia 27...do you have to kill the gunner once because it's possible to kill it? Do you have to kill him twice to get 100% kills since it is possible to get 100% kills? Or do you not have to kill it at all since you can't get out of the level with it dead?

I don't really care about that (I think most demos kill it twice to get to 100% if not achieved another way). I think we all know basically what max is. You just need a lot of little clauses to define it precisely.

As for the lost soul thing...I always thought the reason the original engines stopped counting them in the Kill %...was that they realized the number of lost souls is variable once they introduced the PE (which may have only been in the planning at that point). But from what Myk said, it occurs to me that it may be because they realized the lost souls could get stuck in the wall and become unreachable. After all, they count revived monsters in the kill %. Just a random musing. I think ideally they should continue not to be counted, but I guess Zdoom makes it harder to determine this without additional analysis. I guess that is Myk's point?

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speaking of which, this demo had unkillable monsters left alive (dormant monsters scroll in outside sectors to warp- if their warp position is occupied by another enemy, they skip the warp). Doesn't matter because I missed a secret anyway.

cc3 09 uvmax (minus unkillable warpers and 1 secret)

c309947ggg.zip

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emailking said:

But you have to add spawned monsters to this (and revived spawned monsters), as they're very much reachable.

And even for something like plutonia 27...do you have to kill the gunner once because it's possible to kill it? Do you have to kill him twice to get 100% kills since it is possible to get 100% kills? Or do you not have to kill it at all since you can't get out of the level with it dead?

I don't really care about that (I think most demos kill it twice to get to 100% if not achieved another way). I think we all know basically what max is. You just need a lot of little clauses to define it precisely.

As for the lost soul thing...I always thought the reason the original engines stopped counting them in the Kill %...was that they realized the number of lost souls is variable once they introduced the PE (which may have only been in the planning at that point). But from what Myk said, it occurs to me that it may be because they realized the lost souls could get stuck in the wall and become unreachable. After all, they count revived monsters in the kill %. Just a random musing. I think ideally they should continue not to be counted, but I guess Zdoom makes it harder to determine this without additional analysis. I guess that is Myk's point?


Like I said. Everything killable must be dead. :)
I think the "romero-head"-maps require you to kill all the preset monsters, like the revenant in lv30. The spawned monsters don't matter.

About the pl27 thing, I think it's more of a judgement call than anything else. Someone else fill in with the proper rules!

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This is the first demo I've recorded in quite a while so it's a bit rough and improvable, but I've had enough of it for now:- Map09 Max in 8:16 c309-816.zip.

Mostly it's a simple and fun map except for the yellow key room which seems way too hard. One thing I liked about gggmork's demo was that he made this bit look easy. Perhaps it really is easy?! I dunno...

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emailking said:
I guess that is Myk's point?

I was agreeing with TimeOfDeath; that in ZDoom (or any engine that counts them) they need to be killed, unlike where they aren't counted.

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Anyway, I played these maps.
My records

 Map                          Old time     New time
===================================================
 04   UAC Checkpoint          5:16         4:49
 11   The Grieving Outpost    4:44         4:33
 17   Mind's Prison           9:02         8:13
===================================================
However, I must improve these time yet before uploading.

justanotherfool said:

By the way, map 12 hasn't been maxed yet, since I believe that Rottking missed some monsters when he recorded his demo (not counting the unobtainable kills of course).

After whatching his demo, I checked map 12 while using map editer. (I spent two hours) I found that we can't kill 4 imps and a caco because they can't teleport (The linders are W1).

One demo is regarded as a max demo when you kill 761/766 enemies with 100% secrets. However, he finished this map with killing 758 enemies and 88% secrets. Of course, this is not max.

Cack_handed did map 9, gggmork did map 24, nice works! The rest of UV-Max undone are map 12 and map 18 (and map 25)

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@tatsurd: Surely you're forgetting that you also hold the record for map 07?

I look forward to seeing if you can in fact get below 8 minutes in map 17. At the moment it looks like you're pretty close!

@cack-handed: Nice demo! As you say there's room for improvement still. You had about 50 cells left at the end, for example. Good that everything teleported in successfully for you.

@gggmork: Good job subduing that army of revenants in map 24. I got quite a fright when they revealed themselves... :)

No prizes for guessing which will be the last map to be maxed...

18 could be tricky to do well due to its non-linearity, but 25 is not particularly taxing, and they're both fun maps. "Black Rain" could turn out to be quite an ordeal though.

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justanotherfool said:

@tatsurd: Surely you're forgetting that you also hold the record for map 07?

Yes, I also hold map 07 (and map 30). I don't forget it. Simply, I wrote only records which are redone. I don't intend to retry map 7.

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Figured before I got off the computer tonight that I'd do a cc3 demo. It's a UV-Max for map 25, "Fate In Blood". First attempt at recording was the winner here. Pretty nice when that happens.

As for the demo...the time is 13:39. A good 15+ seconds could be chopped off with some tweaks here and there, but otherwise a pretty solid run (Which nearly ended at the PG trap).

Attaching the zipfile now.

c3251339.zip

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Great demo as always Anima Zero! I saw in the texted file that you didn't really like the ending. I have to say that I dropped the ball on that. Even when CC 3 had a hotfix release I didn't fix the end part. I do however have a fixed version of the map by itself on my computer. But like always with me its too little too late.

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