New Scythe 2b Demos [-complevel 2]

Sweet Angus :). I'll have to check that one out after posting my next demo.

Again, it's map 28 UV-fast. I was orignally going to try an archie boost from the keep into the adjacent room, thereby not even having to worry about doing the s50 skip to bypass the trio of Afrits.

The trick was a little too annoying to pull off in a normal run. Perhaps it's better suited to a TAS demo.

It then changed to another attempt to improve the time. Still didn't get that s50 skip to work, but I did get a new time of 7:13, 2 1/2 minutes quicker than my demo done this morning.

Pulled off every logical improvement I could...with another one being something I don't exactly recommend one to try because it's very easy to get killed doing so. You'll see.

Don't think there's much else that can be improved aside from getting that s50 skip to work. Something in the 6 minute range oughta be possible with that.

Attaching zipfile now.

s228f713.zip

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i'm not sure this is the right thread to post this, but i made two save&load TAS runs showing complicated tricks on the longer later maps. don't expect optimized runs, the ordinary running parts are actually very lame. :)

map24 in 1:59 is like a long chain of tricks that might be pulled off even in a real and cautious run. except for the final slalom through the horde, i guess. map20 in 1:05 ... weeell, i don't wanna spoil the surprise. :) definitely possible in real conditions, i might try it later.

s2bs-dew.zip

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dew said:

i'm not sure this is the right thread to post this

Yes, it's the right place. Showing useful tricks is most definitely welcome, as are TAS demos as long as they are labelled as such (and you have done so very clearly, both in the thread and in the txt).

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30 in 11:39 (er, sorta, I got max then pressed spacebar really quick when the romero head kills you.. so never technically got a tally screen if that matters.).
Maybe the vile jump invuln would be better used for the later 2nd wave of viles, but too much luck/attempts to do that jump, so preferred to get it out of the way at the start (by exploiting viles ability to blast you when far away as long as you shoot them first.. got less annoying after I figured that out). The end was slow but this is the basic route, bleh.
Running through the viles midway takes luck/attempts too.

s2301139.zip

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more speeds from me, evil marines face-offs this time :)

map16 UV-speed/pacifist in 0:29
map31 UV-speed/pacifist in 0:11 (new trick)
map31 UV-speed/pacifist secret exit in 0:11
map32 UV-speed in 0:24

s2dew4.zip

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Great new trick on 31! Also great runs on the new maps. Noone up for 29? =)

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Erik said:

Great new trick on 31! Also great runs on the new maps. Noone up for 29? =)

If that first plasma marine didn't exist so it doesn't feel so luck based trying to start out with my strat, I'd probably have a run by now.

Yeah, that little punk plasma marine kills like 90% of my attempts :P.

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Well.. that kicked ass.
I guess he's just insanely skilled since it looks TAS. There seems to be some hard core players in the skull tag community. (missed 1 imp :P, probably just resurrected though).

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gggmork said:

(missed 1 imp :P, probably just resurrected though).

So sadly it is not a valid Max (resurrected monsters need to be rekilled - this odd ambiguity/misstatement in the compet-n rules was clarified years ago by Adam Hegyi, and has been the definition generally accepted/assumed in the demos community for - I dunno, over a decade).

Your 11:39 also doesn't qualify as a valid Max, since you don't exit the map. Tough luck, but avoiding painful last-second cock-ups has always been a part of demo-recording.

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Where was it clarified and why is the wrong information still in the compet-n FAQ? How is anyone supposed to assume anything, especially newbies, if it's not written.

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Well, Erik can be happy now as all the new maps now have a UV-Max on them. I just did one about an hour ago for map 29, "Dust to Dust". Time is fairly slow, 19:30. This level pretty much demands slow play in many parts though or things just start hitting the crapper.

Even so, I still think another 1-3 minutes can be chopped off.

On the plus side there's two moments that you're going to enjoy. The first one is a classical "oh crap!" moment, the other...I lucked the hell out on that one. You'll see.

Attaching the zipfile now and going to go lie down and rest.

s2291930.zip

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TimeOfDeath said:

Where was it clarified and why is the wrong information still in the compet-n FAQ? How is anyone supposed to assume anything, especially newbies, if it's not written.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=757525#post757525

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=370769#post370769

http://www.doom2.net/~compet-n/cgi-bin/YaBB.cgi?board=misc&action=display&num=1024040326&start=1

AdamH wrote:

If there's no archie you kill everything except lost souls and finish up with 100%. If there are some monsters which can't be killed by any means then you ignore them.
If there's an archie and it resurrects monsters then you MUST kill the resurrected monsters and if they get resurrected again then you MUST kill them again until there's no one alive.
When you exit there can't be any monsters alive wandering, be that resurrected or non-resurrected (except lost souls or unkillable).
If there are any ghosts created then you MUST kill them until there's none of them, however if by level flaw ghosts don't appear (when by design they should), then you don't have to wait for them to appear (see HR26 discussion).


Yes, it is unfortunate that he never clarified this in the compet-n FAQ.

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If there's no archie you kill everything except lost souls and finish up with 100%. If there are some monsters which can't be killed by any means then you ignore them.
If there's an archie and it resurrects monsters then you MUST kill the resurrected monsters and if they get resurrected again then you MUST kill them again until there's no one alive.
When you exit there can't be any monsters alive wandering, be that resurrected or non-resurrected (except lost souls or unkillable).
If there are any ghosts created then you MUST kill them until there's none of them, however if by level flaw ghosts don't appear (when by design they should), then you don't have to wait for them to appear (see HR26 discussion).


This definition from Adam is almost complete, except it implies that spawned monsters need to be killed. Spawned monsters or resurrected monsters that were once spawned do not need to be killed. At least, via the accepted "definition" that everyone implicitly uses.

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I prefer the idea of all monsters having to be dead before exiting (except lost souls in classic-style ports that don't count them towards kill %) but with the boom killed-monsters stat I think it makes more sense to just have to kill the monsters once, since that's what the stat keeps track of. Otherwise, the stat can be useless in levels with archvile resurrections. That's why I asked if it was possible to add an optional zdoom-style kill counter to prboom-plus that adds a monster to the counter when an archvile revives it (as long as it wouldn't cause incompatibilities with recording). But that wouldn't have anything to do with compet-n anyway because of using a port and extra features, etc.

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TimeOfDeath said:

I prefer the idea of all monsters having to be dead before exiting (except lost souls in classic-style ports that don't count them towards kill %) but with the boom killed-monsters stat I think it makes more sense to just have to kill the monsters once, since that's what the stat keeps track of. Otherwise, the stat can be useless in levels with archvile resurrections. That's why I asked if it was possible to add an optional zdoom-style kill counter to prboom-plus that adds a monster to the counter when an archvile revives it...


This exists. Turn off "smart totals" under Options -> Settings -> Staus Bar / HUD

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THANK YOU FOR TELLING ME. I've wasted 2 years playing without that option.

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emailking said:

This definition from Adam is almost complete, except it implies that spawned monsters need to be killed. Spawned monsters or resurrected monsters that were once spawned do not need to be killed. At least, via the accepted "definition" that everyone implicitly uses.

Correct. In that post he was clarifying the point of confusion, rather than restating all the rules of the Max category in their entirety. (After all, he didn't mention secrets either!)

I've tried to incorporate all aspects of the Max rules in a post in the main sticky thread in this forum, but note that this is just an attempt to bring clarity, and not to change any existing rules. If I've forgotten to cover some unusual cases, it doesn't mean to imply that any previously accepted conventions are abandoned.

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Awesome 30 uvmax again. Now... who's gonna be the complete jerk and tell him that using prboom's hud to verify 100% kills also doesn't make it a valid max, ah ha ha ha (assuming it was used). Obviously yours are the best demos so far though.

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gggmork said:

Awesome 30 uvmax again. Now... who's gonna be the complete jerk and tell him that using prboom's hud to verify 100% kills also doesn't make it a valid max, ah ha ha ha (assuming it was used). Obviously yours are the best demos so far though.


i did use the prboom hud to check for remaining monsters at the end but i'll give it another go without the prboom hud if you like.

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Its not necessary in my opinion unless you want to go by the strict compet-n or whatever rules for a level playing field, but grazza is more of an authority on that type of stuff. I just remember a thread awhile back when someone clarified about the hud. There are still unlevel asymmetries such as keyboarders vs. mousers (but I guess both keyboard & mouse were available options in the original doom2 exe, while the hud wasn't). Its not a big deal unless you're trying to seriously compete on a level playing field for a new record or something imo.

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I don't think the hud + other features unlevel the playing field. All someone has to do is use those features themselves. But I get the feeling some grumpy old men are afraid of change. teehee just kidding teehee

Can someone put "douchebag" as my custom title?

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i don't see what's so unfair about using the hud to check if you've missed a monster. imagine playing through an epic slaughtermap for 15-20 minutes and then getting a invalid maxdemo (99% kills) just because an imp got away in that hail of fire.

as for mouse and keyboard, everyone is free to use whatever controller he likes.

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I think the hud makes recording way more fun and way less annoying because of Torr's example.

While mousers would always have an advantage over keyboarders, I like how turn180 can give keyboarders more of a chance (like how gggmork uses it).

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It's not unfair for something like this where only source ports can be used. It would be unfair to current compet-n record holders if source ports are ever allowed for compet-n, since the game itself has no monster counter.

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so, one group is all for traditions, while the other thinks we should be getting both the cookies and the wine... oh wait, that's something else.

i wrote a long rant, but then i realized it's just a chattier version of what emailking said. vanilla for compet-n wads, prboom+ (even with HUD) for the rest! i use the HUD to check if the time doesn't suck too much on 'map checkpoints', and for miliseconds.

anyways...

map20 UV-speed in 1:27 ..the big archie wall climbing! :)
map21 UV-speed/pacifist in 0:39

s2dew5.zip

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But I like playing the compet-n wads with prboom+ too! :P
I guess you couldn't really stop someone from using a stopwatch or something while recording. You could even use the music as a timer by using a recognizable part of the song as a checkpoint. You could even have two computers next to each other, start a demo playing on one of the computers, and then try to record a faster demo on the other computer.

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Torr Samaho said:
i don't see what's so unfair about using the hud to check if you've missed a monster.

Because if you don't, you'll have to use your eyes and ears, and possibly plan your routes better so that the likeliness of missing monsters is reduced. This planning may be a key element in levels that create situations where monsters may stray from view. How much of an effect extra stats have depends on the level. It may be minimal or critical. If you read the text files of existing demos, you'll occasionally see notes about routes planned specifically to catch monsters so that max kills are ensured. That's been part of the game for a long time.

imagine playing through an epic slaughtermap for 15-20 minutes and then getting a invalid maxdemo (99% kills) just because an imp got away in that hail of fire.

That's what makes the completion an achievement. If the demo has 99% kills and you don't want to play it anymore, just upload that. A demo isn't worthless just because it's not perfect or a record.

Sure, you could be unlucky, but there are many things you could be unlucky about during a recording. If the level is any fun, you can well try it again. If luck is a problem you can always dedicate your time to TAS demos, where it is minimized on all levels.

These are Doom demos where smart totals are not implicit, also usable with Doom+ that has no such enhancements, so PrBoom-specific features that alter play shouldn't be used for them unless noted explicitly in the text file. So people will say "okay, he used these features and let me know. Let's see how he did under the circumstances."

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