Didn't see another thread for this, but seeing as a new release was issued, I thought a thread for it's demos should be issued too. Anyway here's my pathetic fda of map 14.

sd14fda.zip

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yeah, it's very surprising... how come such popular cute little wad has no demo thread yet :S

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I wouldn't say "surprising", but my thoughts on this would probably start yet another flamewar.

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Phml said:

I wouldn't say "surprising", but my thoughts on this would probably start yet another flamewar.


well bring it on!!1!

no seriously, it gets way too hard to record (non-TAS) demo stuff, just my semi-failed max took me around 15+ hours of wasted tries. I'd say it'll do the job if this remains as a part of miscellaneous demos thread.

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So how far can you guys get in the new map? I've only made it to the horde of imps at the beginning :( Anyway, he's right about this map being hard as heck.

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Yeah I want to know what Phml thinks as well :P

Anyway the wad is still in development, no point in spending ages making proper demos when any second there could be an update that'll put them out of sync. I reckon the time for a dedicated thread is when there's a relatively bug-free stable version on general release.

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From that recent thread asking about how long people spent on demos, among other things, I'm really having the feeling that some, if not a fair amount, of the players producing super-skilled demos get to their results because they give dozens of hours, hundreds of attempts on a single run.

It's obvious you can't get to a great result without great skill anyway, but if one's success rate in playing as fast as he usually does in posted demos is, i.e., 1% or below on most normal maps, recording at this level of quality is going to become exponentially harder on Sunder, due to the length and the difficulty of the maps.

In other words, I feel that some people might shy away from recording on Sunder because they know they wouldn't be able to keep the same extremely high standard of playing they show in other demos.

This might be overly negative and maybe there's numerous other reasons explaining why Sunder gets so little attention from speedrunners compared to the attention it seems to get from the general Dooming populace, such as being WIP as RjY mentioned, or simply a dislike of the slaughter style.

As an aside, I feel obligated to add I don't have anything against people who choose to spend a disproportionate amount of time on some runs (hell I sometimes do it myself on maps I like), just like TAS it makes for fun stuff to watch even if a bit unrealistic.

Still, I am more fond of replicable play - not necessarily something you can pull off with a 100% success rate, but something that feels like you almost could, and not just AV jump after glide after double AV jump after rocket jump with monsters moving at the perfect time into the perfect position and so on ; which is why my favorite runners are by far gggmork and TimeOfDeath, as they both keep a high skill level on a variety of extremely long and hard maps, sometimes multiple hours demos, and from that you can tell they're really that good and not just trying 374095 times until they get it right.

Edit: removed the most "trollish" sentence of my post as after thinking about it further I don't think it's a fair thing to say. I appreciate there's great effort and skill involved in optimizing runs to a second, it's just a different kind of skill than the one I enjoy most.

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Phml said:

I wouldn't say "surprising", but my thoughts on this would probably start yet another flamewar.

well.. maybe you have something radical on your mind, but i'd see the reason in the maps being just too epic and sprawling and non-optimizable. not unlike newgothic it is stuck between "survival journey" (e.g. uacultra, maybe vrack) and "slaughtermap" (e.g. deus vults, eternal's stuff) - it doesn't appeal directly either to the kimo/sav/vdgg/tatsurd crowd or to the tod/ggg/belial flock. i'm actually surprised to see skepticist recording demos for sunder as i'd shove him right into the former group.

but that doesn't mean there's no target group among the runners.. this is right up in the phml/okuplok/anima territory. the former two already recorded demos, perhaps anima has a reason why he's overlooking sunder.

but if you meant literally "why there isn't a sunder thread"... well, okuplok released all his stuff in a pack, skepticist only uploaded his 2 demos last week... so there is not enough sunder posts to provoke a split from misc. :)

EDIT: ah, i see i've posted just late. well... your vision is too negative, imo. large long maps that don't aim directly at a target group get demos slowly - cc3 map12? it's one of the best doom maps i know of, but it's just too damn exhausting to get a max for it. and recording speedruns isn't exactly a priority for such maps (sunder including).

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Dew, you're probably right. My bias and annoyance regarding various little things that happened on this forum is most likely why I'm having such a negative point of view here that might not reflect any reality.

Edit : posted this before seeing your edit actually, but I agree fully with what you said there as well.

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Phml said:

I'm having such a negative point of view here that might not reflect any reality.


I think this. Not in a bad way, I just don't understand where you get these ideas.

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EDIT2: countering your edit! i saw the "trollish" part and let it slide even though it was basically aimed at my type of players. well not now. :P it's true i could be seen as an ADHD freak that likes to bash his head against a brick wall until the wall gives in... but it's unfair to call us out like that. for example kimo already proved he could record longer type max runs, xepop just claimed a doom2 30uv coop record... and cmon, one of my first demos posted on doomworld was my 20min+ rocket jumping session on rjspace9f. timeofdeath can confirm how much concentration this requires, it's actually an exercise in totally anal precision! and it still took me 374095 tries to get it right. :) sunder just isn't appealing to all of us.

(i'm posting this in a separate post because the edit mania got out of hand, haha)

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I don't really think it's simply not appealing to demorecorders. It's just that they die quarter/halfway through. If I get too far, I die because of excitement of getting so far.

I still wonder how did oku make all sunder maps in such fast time. I doubt he is normal human, more like a bot or psychopath or smt. Just give em a look, it's almost as if no desperate move was done in any single run regardless of such long slaughters. It's not a TAS (see his sunder coop), but it most certainly isn't a random playthrough. I shared with him non-public sunder version, and he had a run of map 11 in 3 goddamn days on his yt channel (now tell me how the hell did he think of a stable route, remembered every bit of map and execute a whole run in such time). Also the way he behave - he made some of the most impressive runs EVER, and doesn't even seem to care if anyone cares about them.

heh, it's almost as if dw really had quite a high weird-per-person ratio

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@j4rio: Yeah that happens to me a lot in maps like this. "Oh boy, I beat that part, yay!--oh shit"

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Thanks Phml, it takes a certain bravery to express an opinion when you think it's controversial enough that the rest of the community is going to react badly (and you're not *deliberately* trying to annoy everyone ;) )

I don't record much so take this with a pinch of salt but, yes, I'd rather record over and over again on a short, easy level than record a first exit on a long, difficult one.

Although there have been exceptions, I prefer to try to make demos that someone else would want to watch, rather than a demo just to prove that I can beat a map. I am not very skilled, so if I played a hard level, then to increase my chances of finishing, I would have to play in a cautious manner that would be boring to sit through. So I feel compelled to record over and over again until I get something I feel, if not happy with, but at least, not embarrassed by. Therefore I only record maps that I can comfortably play over and over again without getting bored, or worse, frustrated.

(Also from these fun and replayable levels, I tend to pick those that inexplicably have no demos already, in order to suggest the map to the rest of you. Then hopefully someone with good skills could be inspired to record a proper demo :) If there's already a demo for a level, chances are I won't be able to beat it.)

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'the wad is still in development, no point in spending ages making proper demos when any second there could be an update that'll put them out of sync.'

This.
*looks around to make sure people think I'm cool enough to use the 'This.' meme*

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Of the recorders still active (although to my seredipitous surprise, a certain legend just recorded something...*hint* *hint*), I'm 100% sure ToD, Heretic, Skep, SAV, Anima, Tatsurd, Armane, Blob, etc can record demos of similar or higher quality than Okuplok. Especially ToD. Therefore, I don't think that the difficulty of the wad or the length of the maps are the primary obstacles, but rather that the wad itself is a wip, so there might be demo-breaking changes in the far future. Ggg is 100% correct, as I asked I_G the same question in the past.

In other words, my opinion is to just stop over-analyzing the meta-game of demo recording. I did that in the past, and I was met with either sardonic silence or disdainful quasi-trolling, so I'm done.

Edit: Just realized that this thread is over a week old...blah.

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gggmork said:

'the wad is still in development, no point in spending ages making proper demos when any second there could be an update that'll put them out of sync.'

This.
*looks around to make sure people think I'm cool enough to use the 'This.' meme*


I think that's probably the biggest problem. I'm being a bit of a perfectionist in regards to these maps, so unless people want to record demos and then put them on youtube (which is quite a lot more effort than just recording them and uploading the demo file), there's always that possibility they won't work later. I know I've had some trouble playing back some Map03 demos, and I could have sworn all I changed were some texture alignments.

The second reason, which I think Phml touched on, is that making demos for maps like these that don't involve huge amounts of death is tough as hell. And that's certainly part of what I had in mind for these maps - I didn't just want to challenge the regular doom crowd, but the experts too.

Still though, watching some of the failed demo attempts has been incredibly entertaining :P

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My first UV max ever. It's not that good. But after dying 50+ times at the final battle I got so tired and saved this one. At least I made it to the exit.

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great job! I knew opuklok's time was improvable, but forgot about trying ( that would have been the only sunder map i'd have dared to play I guess ;p )
good time :)

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map 2 demonstration of a mapping error (and also a valid max in 7:59)

cmon peoples (lurking doomgods), I want some demoies... it's too quiet around here lately

su02-759.zip

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map 2 in 7:28

undescribably glad to beat Vlad's really amazing time, though I'm not that proud to take advantage of a mapping error . . .

su02-728.zip

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map 3 in 13:06

Okay that's it, my sanity has been permanently damaged. Thanks to skep for some nice ideas. Recorded with 1.4.1 version (so is the stuff above this post) so playing back with DSDA (1.3) version this demo will desync.

su031306.zip

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wonderful! and those telefrags... how to you plan and manage to execute those well-timed?

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Been away for few weeks, and I come back surprised as usual by excellent demos. Keep on trucking with these great gems, J4. :)

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