SR40 v. SR50 discussion [split from Final DOOM demos thread]

Looper said:

Strafe40 is faster than strafe50 in that maze when not going for UV-speed because you can cut corners much better and the angle is always 'correct'. With strafe50 the angle is f***ed up all the time.


Someone clarify this for me, i thought either strafe40 or strafe50 were counted as tool assits and any demo submitted with them was a TAS.

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AnAussieGamer said:

Someone clarify this for me, i thought either strafe40 or strafe50 were counted as tool assits and any demo submitted with them was a TAS.

Automated SR50 is considered to be tool-assistance, and is a high degree of cheating.

Players who just use the "Strafe on" key like doomers have done since 1993 (more people used SR50 in 1993 than now because of how peoples' usage of controls to maneuver have changed) are by no means cheaters.

SR40 (Strafe Run 40) is the technique of pressing both the Go Forward/Go Backward key and the Strafe Left/Strafe Right key simultaneously while running.

This moves the player at a diagonal, and the forward/backward speed "combines" (not exactly but it's the easiest way to explain it) with the strafe left/right speed to make an even greater speed.

SR50 (Strafe Run 50) is is the technique of pressing both the Go Forward/Go Backward key and the Turn Left/Turn Right key while holding the Strafe On key and while running.

When holding the Strafe On key and strafing with the Turn Left/Turn Right keys you go at a speed of 50, and when strafe with the Strafe Left/Strafe Right keys you go at a speed of 40. Since using the Turn Left/Turn Rightkeys with the Strafe On key is (oddly) a faster way of strafing than just directionally using the Strafe Left/Strafe Right keys, it is normally faster.

In this case it (maybe) is not faster because the "weird" diagonal moves the player at an angle that is so steep that the player will run into the wall, thus having to stop and correct him/her self, and thus waste even more time.

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No, both are legit tricks, strafe50 is just a faster version, which is activated by using a strafe right button, strafe on, move forward, turn right all simultaneously. It's 41% faster than plain running forward as opposed to just 28% regular strafing provides, with an added drawback of not being able to turn while using it.
However, there are tools out there that allow you to automate sr50 and turn all your sr40 into sr50. For example, prboom-plus has this feature, it even allows to turn while sr50-ing. This is considered a tools-assistance.
EDIT: damn, i was slower :s

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Archy said:

When holding the Strafe On key and strafing with the Turn Left/Turn Right keys you go at a speed of 50, and when strafe with the Strafe Left/Strafe Right keys you go at a speed of 40. Since using the Turn Left/Turn Rightkeys with the Strafe On key is (oddly) a faster way of strafing than just directionally using the Strafe Left/Strafe Right keys, it is normally faster.

Not quite. Holding down Strafe On and a turn key only gives Strafe40. And the majority of keyboard only players will never strafe at a speed higher than this. To get to Strafe50 you need to hold down Strafe On, AND the Turn Right/Turn Left key, AND the Strafe Left/Strafe Right key. Which is a bit trickier to do. And it's that, as much as not being able to change direction while using Strafe50, that led to the use of automated tools to supply the extra input needed.

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gosh, i was always confused from this sr40 and sr50 discussion.
Personally I use keyboard AND mouse, but I do have vertical sensitivity too.
i use left and right arrow for left and right strafe, then also press at same time the forward arrow and use mouse to move as well (eventually the strafe button there).
what kind of strafe am i doing? :D
i guess its sr40 unless im correctly placed to have the bonus, but i'm honestly clueless. I thought I had to be 45 angle while running to get sr50, but now I saw it written I "only" would need to use the strafe button too?

"SR50 (Strafe Run 50) is is the technique of pressing both the Go Forward/Go Backward key and the Turn Left/Turn Right key while holding the Strafe On key and while running."

yea, im confused, and im tired as fuck, so my capacity of understanding even easy concept is below zero. worked 14h in a row now zZz

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It is very easy to determine whether you are using SR50 or not, because you can't turn when you do. (unless you have "movement_strafe50 1" in prboom-plus.cfg)

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blob1024 said:

"SR50 (Strafe Run 50) is is the technique of pressing both the Go Forward/Go Backward key and the Turn Left/Turn Right key while holding the Strafe On key and while running."


You don't have to move forward to strafe50.

Strafe40 = Just regular strafe.
Strafe50 = Just regular strafe + strafe modifier + turn left/right.



When moving forward, it's MF50(moveforward 50), but with vertical mouse enabled, when you turn with your mouse, you likely move your mouse towards you, which lowers your moveforward, down to 40-45 or so.

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blob1024 (actually Archy) said:

"SR50 (Strafe Run 50) is is the technique of pressing both the Go Forward/Go Backward key and the Turn Left/Turn Right key while holding the Strafe On key and while running."

Looper said:

You don't have to move forward to strafe50.

Strafe40 = Just regular strafe.
Strafe50 = Just regular strafe + strafe modifier + turn left/right.



When moving forward, it's MF50(moveforward 50), but with vertical mouse enabled, when you turn with your mouse, you likely move your mouse towards you, which lowers your moveforward, down to 40-45 or so.

Notice I said "Strafe Run" -- not "Strafe."

"Strafe" can be either 40 or 50 without Go Forward/Go Backward movement, but a "Strafe Run" requires the usage of the Go Forward/Go Backward key.

http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Straferunning said:
Straferunning is running forward and moving sideways (strafing) at the same time[.]

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Ryback said:

Not quite. Holding down Strafe On and a turn key only gives Strafe40. And the majority of keyboard only players will never strafe at a speed higher than this. To get to Strafe50 you need to hold down Strafe On, AND the Turn Right/Turn Left key, AND the Strafe Left/Strafe Right key. Which is a bit trickier to do. And it's that, as much as not being able to change direction while using Strafe50, that led to the use of automated tools to supply the extra input needed.


Holy crap I've never known that even after all these years. I guess it's because I SR/SL 50 with the mouse.

Wow, I'm in shock.

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this discussion deserved a split into its own thread

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Funny that this thread has come up right as I have this question:

How does SR-50 when turning work? I thought it just changed the SR40 values to be fast but I saw TAS demo had SR50 when turning. I assume you can't do something in a TAS that's not theoretically possible during normal play.

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You can't turn when using SR50. You literally have to let go of keys, turn, then do it again. So if someone is using SR50 and turns, thats because he has sr50 auto on. Which means just normal strafing becomes sr50 and you can turn. I think...

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DRM: When Andrey Budko was making his TAS movies for doom and doom2, he thought that SR50 on turns is theoretically possible to do if you have three hands or something like that. Later he realized that he was wrong but SR50 on turns already became a standard in TAS and now most people use it.

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Memfis said:

DRM: When Andrey Budko was making his TAS movies for doom and doom2, he thought that SR50 on turns is theoretically possible to do if you have three hands or something like that.

He (falsely) believed that while you were Strafe Running 50 on the keyboard, you could still turn with a joystick.

This actually would in fact be possible with a joystick that uses Vanilla Doom's external control API to input tics with a driver. Using a driver like this though would just be considered real time TAS, just like as a SR50 mouse driver would be considered TAS.

To understand what I mean, mess around with replay.exe to understand this.

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Since I don't have joystick myself I always trusted that the joystick trick worked. This kinda invalidates what I'm trying to do with my doom2 run (and I'm having great difficulties on certain map so ETA unknown...)

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Archy said:

This actually would in fact be possible with a joystick that uses Vanilla Doom's external control API to input tics with a driver.

is this how the pr-boom SR50 on turns works? Or does it just give two "strafes" while allowing you to turn? Or does it, like I was saying earlier, just change the sr40 speed values to sr50 speed values?

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Archy said:

This actually would in fact be possible with a joystick that uses Vanilla Doom's external control API to input tics with a driver.

DuckReconMajor said:

is this how the pr-boom SR50 on turns works?

Pretty much, PRBoom-Plus inputs the game with SR/SL50 tics when pressing the Strafe Left/Strafe Right key.

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That's only if you've enabled that particular TAS* option, of course.
----------------
* Or rather, "TAS+", since traditional TAS demos didn't feature this.

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That's what I meant by "pr-boom SR50 on turns"

nice html ninja edit. I've never seen TAS+ denoted on demos I've seen "sr50 on turns" on though.

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TAS+ should become a term and a category separate from traditional TAS. DSDA should list TAS+ demos for people that use SR50 on turns.

Hmm... what would TAS- be?

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skill 5 no double ammo 1000% speed no mouse no strafing no -recordfromto or building

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This actually would in fact be possible with a joystick that uses Vanilla Doom's external control API to input tics with a driver.

So, does this mean there is a possibility to get sr50 with turns in vanilla in a tas demo after all by using this command? I've skimmed through the thread you linked to, and it seems there's some official (?) logitech driver for a joystick also. Would it be possible to do it with that joystick and external API? Apologies for not reading thoroughly, i'm very tired but very curious atm :p

Ryback said:

A Uwe or Steffen demo perhaps.

ahaha!

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jongo said:

So, does this mean there is a possibility to get sr50 with turns in vanilla in a tas demo after all by using this command? I've skimmed through the thread you linked to, and it seems there's some official (?) logitech driver for a joystick also. Would it be possible to do it with that joystick and external API? Apologies for not reading thoroughly, i'm very tired but very curious atm :p

I don't have a joystick so I don't know if it would work with that logitech driver but it would certainly be possible with a driver.

Segmenting is also possible in Vanilla Doom:

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I didn't realize that SR50-on-turns was standard for TAS runners. That's disappointing. If you want to run at physically impossible speeds why not just set -turbo to max and be done with it?

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Creaphis said:

If you want to run at physically impossible speeds why not just set -turbo to max and be done with it?


Because everyone thought it's possible with a joystick(?).

Oh well, it's not that big of a deal, I think.

But can you strafe50 on the first few tics? I have seen it at least in cp21-039, but is that prboom+ only feature?

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I think kimo tested that in vanilla doom2 and it appeared to be possible, not only when you boot up doom, but also when you exit the map and start the new one.
EDIT: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1040687 found only this reference so far, bleh. This post and the next one by him.

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