Compet-N: incoming and discussion, part 2 [post Compet-N entries here]

pn01 record - that's the spirit! I'd call pn08 a very unfortunate case - as you can see, only one person remembered such a thing existed, it was shown in a rather niche thread. I probably didn't see it before yesterday.

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Memfis said:

I'm not sure if that rule applies to the boss maps.

AdamH never enforced that rule for single-player demos on Doom2 map30, and this is one area where the compet-n rules seemed open to differing interpretations; although maybe it was clear and consistent to Adam himself. Of course e2m8 and e3m8 are a little different, since there does have to be a player alive at the end, whereas on map30 that isn't the case. I suspect we might all agree that a coop demo where one player dies early on and the other exits a minute later after killing the boss is not particularly satisfactory.

Regarding cack_handed's pn08 and the "how can I know what the record is?" problem, this is a case of "no uploads, no glory!" He didn't submit it as a compet-n "entry" (even with compet-n in limbo, this thread served/serves as a place to submit entries). There are probably a bunch of other demos that would be compet-n records if uploaded, but which are only on people's hard-disks (e.g., ocelot) or other sites or forums. If you want to know the current [provisional] compet-n record, it is pretty easy to find out. If you want to know what the fastest time ever recorded is, it is much harder to say for sure.

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Personally, I consider it valid, but it's not like I have sole power (or any power in the case of compet-n) to make such rulings.

But may I suggest a clarification of the rule for this? That is, that a demo is valid if all players are alive up to the point where the mechanism for ending the map is triggered, or events set in motion to trigger it that require no further intervention from any of the players; this applies for coop and SP. By that measure, this demo is valid, and so (AFAIK) are all the compet-n records where this is an issue. So this avoids any serious backwards incompatibility, but leaves things less uncertain going forward.

"Disclosure" (heh): I have an interest in the form of my NM Pacifist on Build.wad (non-Compet-n).

Notes:
1) The map must still exit, naturally. So if all three players had died on E3M8 after killing the spider, the map would not exit, and the demo would not be valid.
2) The "valid as long as no player corpses have stopped moving" rule is unaffected (I chose the wording so as not to clobber this long-standing rule).
3) There will always be vexing cases in even the most apparently well-defined demo categories.

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Grazza said:

or events set in motion to trigger it that require no further intervention from any of the players

But what exactly is intervention? Ridiculously hypothetical situation: e3m8 coop pacifist, an infighting is instigated between the spiderdemon and other monsters, then one of the players dies. Even if the other player doesn't participate in the fight directly, he still can affect RNG by e.g. picking up health potions. Would that be an intervention? Maybe it is necessary to pick up a health potion to affect the RNG in such way so that the spiderdemon dies.

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Ok, nailed it again, even better time. 12.77 this time, without anyone dying at the end, heh.
JCD's going to post it in few minutes.

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Memfis said:

But what exactly is intervention? Ridiculously hypothetical situation: e3m8 coop pacifist, an infighting is instigated between the spiderdemon and other monsters, then one of the players dies. Even if the other player doesn't participate in the fight directly, he still can affect RNG by e.g. picking up health potions. Would that be an intervention? Maybe it is necessary to pick up a health potion to affect the RNG in such way so that the spiderdemon dies.

This would be a strict interpretation, and yes, that would be "intervention". You could prove such a demo invalid by showing that exists a course of action that leads to the mechanism not being triggered. So in in the case of E3M8 if one of the players dies long before the spider is dead, then the other players are indeed almost certainly "intervening" to bring about this conclusion and the demo would not be valid. I doubt that in practice there are many marginal cases.

Edit: ^ yeah, that's a neater solution!

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VinceDSS said:
I remember discussing deaths in coop demos with AdamH.
You are allowed to die in a very limited way.

The demo is valid if the map exits while either :
- the death animation is not completed
- the corpse is still sliding or falling

If the corpse comes to a standstill the demo is invalid.

We discussed that because of demos like pl01 with players dying in order to exit faster.
It was also accepted for some demos where one player dies just while the other exits.

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Are you guys all in the same room or can you actually do co-op speedruns over the 'net without lag issues?

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Nope, we're not recording in LAN. We all live in France though, so we can play without experiencing much lag... kinda.

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Creaphis said:

Are you guys all in the same room or can you actually do co-op speedruns over the 'net without lag issues?


It works fine, played with fx02 few days ago :-) You can feel it's not single-player but it's definitely playable. fx02 is from Croatia and I'm from Finland in case someone wonders the distance.
When me and xepop played together, we noticed that alt-tabbing from dosbox made it laggy.

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MM2, MAP17 (No One by Michael Rapp), -respawn in 5:59
Requiem, MAP23 (Hatred by Dario Casali), -respawn in 6:05

mm2_req3.zip

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JCD said:

Ultimate Doom e3m6 COOP 2P Uv Max in 2:00

What a chaos :)

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I uploaded cack's pn08-019 since it had the compet-n text files and everything. "This is a DooM .LMP "Competition" Entry - Please forward it..." Sure, just a few years late. Altima also uploaded some viles old demo that was lost in the cracks of internet so I guess it's ok.

Here's another ugly run with a route that wasn't done before for whatever reason.

pl09-057.zip

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Filling up the plutonia -respawn demo list. In chronological order, pr25 in 4:33, pr22 in 5:28 and pr12 in 4:25. I dare say that the last one is worth watching.

plresp.zip

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Getting this didn't take as long as I thought it would but at least for me it was not exactly trivial (ie over a couple of days I spent close to 20 hours to get one exit). For some reason I was really dedicated to get this after I saw xits old records and thought "hey, glide wankery can save time here too" and the old record was a pn+ps double whammy to boot. I skip the secret to not take all xits records since he only has like fifteen billion of them.

pn09-104.zip

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Plutonia map02 in 1:03.
More plutonia nm stuff. At first I thought the old record was a table filler but I just checked the old records and there was a couple of them, by much better players with much slower times. Oh wow. I guess being able to try stupid strats until they work is my super power.

pn02-103.zip

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Just a notice to those who regularly just check for new demos in incoming that I've added option to notify (email) if someone upload demo. You can turn it on here: http://goo.gl/cpd8g
Also, most of two player cooperative demos are in database.

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I can beat ev17-308... I know I can... I've got a couple minor route adjustments (nothing drastic really) and I'm not really satisfied with mistakes. As long as those two revs before the blue key room go down and the stupid AV in the blue key room freaking stands still...

But there's so much that can go wrong here :-(. The monsters keep finding new ways to frustrate me! Random wandering chaingunners can really put a damper on your day here.

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fx02 said:
Just a notice to those who regularly just check for new demos in incoming that I've added option to notify (email) if someone upload demo.

Does this work for anyone? I had signed up but didn't get an email for the demo above (which also went to incoming).

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