Compet-N: incoming and discussion, part 2 [post Compet-N entries here]

I've managed to merge old COMPET-N forum (users/topics/posts/pvt) into new one but I still need to merge/fix some duplicated users.

If you already had account on new forum, you can ignore this but still you could/should check your forum user details.

But if you didn't had account (old COMPET-N forum users) then if you want to help, please log in to forum (http://www.doom.com.hr/forum/) with old COMPET-N username/password and see if it works.

If it's not working, request new password via login form or by sending your username to admin@doom.com.hr with new password so I'll change it manually.

Also, demo upload script is fixed and should work now, contest is ending soon so send your demos, now i'm going to watch incoming demos. :)

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Plutonia map27 max in 3:14 (using final doom exe)

This is what a demo from me looks like when I am just getting a feel for a map, since it was pretty much the first run through, lol. I did not submit it to c-n because it's not a record, nor even close to optimized, but that wasn't the point of it. I just wanted to kill that previously unreachable archvile. How to do it? Lots of rockets. :P

pl27-314.zip

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Heh, so ep3 max and whole pl max are now invalid :p

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That's debatable... I'm pretty sute there were some cases where it was possible to kill an otherwise unreachable monster in some similarly ridiculous way but Adam said that it wasn't necessary for uv-max. People like Grazza, Ryback, vdgg probably can name a few examples.

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I felt obligated to share that find, though I wasn't thrilled about it. Knowing it's possible to kill that archvile made that map less fun than it initially looked (if it ends up being a requirement).

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Memfis said:

That's debatable...


Actually, if we were following Hegyi's rules, then it's as I said. Except that personally I think he made some exceptionally stupid rules that cause confusion until this day, and I absolutely disagree with some. Remember the "every monster needs to be killed once" rule?

My opinion - if there was already accepted max which didn't take out that vile, then challengers of that record don't need to kill it, even if it was found to be possible.

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MM11 is 'fixed' for COMPET-N: http://doom.com.hr/index.php?page=compet-n_rules

Such monsters (arch in this example) either should be fixed with new map or ignored. But I'd always go with fixing.

Killing every monster is true "MAX" rule, if you want to randomly kill 100% play respawn then.

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You can't fix all maps to fall into schemes of your rules. Make your rules better instead. They have to cover extreme examples.

And I'm going to disagree with using term "true max" as an excuse to kill every reachable monster like this case. Max was already nerfed down to exclude 100% items because it was annoying, doing so with monsters in extreme cases should be therefore considered as well.

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j4rio said:

You can't fix all maps to fall into schemes of your rules. Make your rules better instead. They have to cover extreme examples.

what you're failing to understand is that hegyi is not to fault here. he and his trusted colleagues DID explain or change the rules whenever a controversial or an outlier demo appeared. but then he just left and ever since no one had the guts to assume the grandmaster position to have the final say over unclear cases. c-n rules are simply stuck in a 10year limbo, they weren't meant to be the holy scripture cast in stone.

now the real problem is that nowadays you can't get a decisive authority like that. you will get highprofile opponents at every step and there will always be the threat of being called illegitimate whenever someone gets pissed off enough.

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Well excuse me for assuming that fx dude over here claimed exactly that spot.

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Well, it's all buggy and crappy.
I'm not even sure if you got me right, I'm just suggesting to fix the map. I will not pursue 100% kills if map is bugged like this so yeah additional MAX notice will be added right away.

As vdgg stated, COMPET-N was long time out of nowhere. Many things changed from then and now I'm trying to fix that big hole. I'm really sorry if someone does not like that but I'm really trying to do my best.

Anyway, this is really not a place to discuss such topics.

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fx02 said:

Nice, I only have a minor complaint that you could have explained what was the point of these changes because stuff like "- lindef 1394 & 1397, added tag 33, action 1" doesn't tell me much, at least without looking in the editor, and some people don't know anything about Doom editing. :)

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Some demos in mm11 can be prevented from desynchronizing when you make fixed mm11 without rebuilding nodes. Is it correct?

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Requiem map32 max in 1:07

Missed a rocket near the end, otherwise happy with it. It was more than a one second improvement for once lately. :o

rq32-107.zip

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I think a better fix for MM MAP11 is just to change the special for lines 1394 and 1397 from zero to 1.

This can be done using Boom's CLED utility in DOSBOX i.e.

cled mm.wad line(11,1394).type=1
cled mm.wad line(11,1397).type=1
I haven't checked all demos, but it looks promising because the ones I did check (from the DSDA) page don't desync.

edit: Added .type to CLED commands.

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Well, I just made those two lines passable, so you can enter area with monsters that were unreachable before. I'd rather have additional file mm11fix.wad than altering mm.wad. I don't know if it's possible to avoid desyncing, maybe someone can help with that since there are no demos for mm11fix.wad so we can alter it before damage is done.

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IMO instead of altering the map, it would be better if unreachable monsters could be ignored on MM11. By that I mean anything behind the grates, including the sargeants. It wouldn't be too hard to know that you have killed everything, since monsters don't wander around much, and the demo could be checked if there is any doubt.

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I put a thread about saving a map without rebuilding nodes.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-editing/49806-making-slight-changes-to-a-map-without-rebuilding-the-nodes/

Like marineController said, it is possible for using CLED. I think it's a good opportunity to define a clear rule on mm11 and the final chance to change the map for a max. UV-Max and UV-Fast demos can't avoid desyncing, but it is no problem because previous demos on these category would be invalid under a new rule. fx02, please release new fixed mm11 with the way. I want to check it.

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Do the old demos ignore the unreachable monsters? What about replacing those monsters with decorations and use a dehacked patch that changes the decorations into replicas of those monsters without counting them towards kill%? Then people could ignore the monsters without breaking any rules (and maybe the old demos wouldn't desync if nodes weren't rebuilt?).

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TimeOfDeath said:

Do the old demos ignore the unreachable monsters? What about replacing those monsters with decorations and use a dehacked patch that changes the decorations into replicas of those monsters without counting them towards kill%? Then people could ignore the monsters without breaking any rules (and maybe the old demos wouldn't desync if nodes weren't rebuilt?).

A good opinion! However, Peo's mm11 demo in which he killed almost unreachable monsters by infighting, so it can't avoid desyncing. I am just interesting with playing the unreachable area and it is not at all a minor error, so I hope the map is fixed, though the final decision entrust the admin.


Plutonia Experiment Map 14 NM-Speed(also NM100S) in 0:50

pn14-050.zip

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tatsurd-cacocaco said:

Plutonia Experiment Map 14 NM-Speed(also NM100S) in 0:50

Brilliant! And funny text :D

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Another fix which makes MM MAP11 maxable and does not cause desyncs (surprisingly) and is better than my previous suggestion is:

cled mm.wad sector(11,175).tag=27
Slade: Even though I'm posting potential edits I agree with you that it's better not to change anything :)

TOD: You're idea was good and would probably have worked if the monsters were inactive but in this case some of the unreachable monsters wake up and walk around (some can be killed if you have enough patience).

On a side note with CLED you can fix other errors i.e. for Doom II (be sure to make a backup before doing this)
cled doom2.wad sector(15,147).type=0
cled doom2.wad sector(27,93).type=0
Changes maps 15 and 27 so you can get to see 100% secrets on the intermission screen.

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Maybe there was a misunderstanding, but I was talking about making replica monsters out of decorations, but they behave exactly like real monsters and don't count towards kill%.

Attached are two wads and one demo. One wad has imps, the other has decorations changed into imps. The demo works fine on both wads and doesn't desync, so I think old mm11 demos also won't desync if you want to use this method.

imp.zip

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I tried your suggestion and it does work but some demos do still desync. Another small problem (for episode and movie runs) is that there are 4 things to replace but there are only 3 unused things in the whole of mm.wad (keen, wolfenstein ss and hanging body2).
The countkill flag can have an effect for nightmare and respawn however the existing demos don't desync so that isn't an issue.

Another idea would be to use the original version of the map: dm2gm2.wad
Just rename MAP01 to MAP11 and use that as the fixed version :)

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marineController said:

Another idea would be to use the original version of the map: dm2gm2.wad
Just rename MAP01 to MAP11 and use that as the fixed version :)

It's out of question because all demos in mm11 will be invaild.

When mm11 is fixed for UV-Max and UV-Fast, I don't want demos on other categories to be involved in the problem. Fortunately, a player left the first area which have unreachable zones soon and didn't go to some areas in demos on other categories. It seemed to be easy to aviod desyncing if the map is saved without rebuilding nodes. I therefore proposed it to fx02. I'm not very eager to save all old demos completely. I just want fx02 to try to make a fixed mm11 without rebuilding nodes.

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Doom2 map22 max in 1:10

That revenant rocket near the end was my favorite part. I'm guessing the chaingunner got hit for the full amount.

lv22-110.zip

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Pretty amazing that you can still improve old iwad records, I remember looking at the records few years ago thinking most doom and doom2 ones must be close to perfect.

Plutonia ep3 in 12:31
Got this surprisingly painlessly, far from perfect but my goal was just to get under 13 so I'm pretty pleased with this. Now I need to try 30pl which will probably make me hate life and all it stands for.

1231pl21.zip

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Well I imagine many of these iwad records have gotten to the point that good play isn't all you need to break records. Some of the more fortunate events (like the revenant telefrag, which happens less than 50 percent of the time) are almost required to get there. I didn't choose lv22 necessarily because it looked beatable, because it seemed pretty solid, but the level did look like fun to max. I'll probably keep peeking around to see what other runs could possibly be improved.

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