Compet-N: incoming and discussion, part 2 [post Compet-N entries here]

tatsurd-cacocaco said:
The number of your attempts increase in fixed term, then the success rate clearly increase in broad perspective. It is equal to luck boost. This is the same as saving time like you said. You can try another map for time you saved and get better result in fixed time. Infinite time never exists, so I said "HUD affects records".


If you change "infinite" with "enough", it will better for comparing. If you have enough time for recording, your non-HUD demo will be pretty much the exact same as the one where you did use HUD. If you factorize amount of time spent on demo, then there is a direct affection depending on ones perspective. Not my perspective though.

tatsurd-cacocaco said:
I do actually not think using Kills/Items/Secrets counter is very unfair advantages in a single map run, excluding a very long map or a tricky map. However, HUD displays not only Kills/Items/Secrets counter but also Timer. I think Timer more effects a record in a single map run. You can compare your time with target time in some checkpoints while you are recording a demo, then you can find whether the attempt would beat the record or not in the early stage. The difference between a player with HUD and without HUD is obvious if the run is enough polished.


I don't get why timer is considered such a root of all evil. I believe even SDA speedrunners have allowance to be aware of their time, so why should it be c-n exclusive prohibition? Should I use my kitchen timer to ding after every 2 minutes? Would that be TAS? Kitchen timer is a devilish tool, after all.

tatsurd-cacocaco said:
If your memory is good, is it equal to doing a movie with HUD? No, it's wrong. For example, there is a route by which you can finish a map quickly but miss some enemies easily and the map has some viles. A player without HUD might select another route for safety because he avoid missing some enemies or going to a next map without noticing it for over 100% Kills. He also might spent time for checking the whole map again before the exit. In short, reliable routes for a movie would be very different between a player with HUD and without HUD because the success rate is extremely different. This example is not rare case. I think over 100% Kills by a vile is pretty troublesome. Your memory can't supplement the disadvantage in no HUD and a player with HUD never has risk of the exit with missing enemies. I think the difference is too large and too unfair.


You've just summed up why there was almost no interest in max movies as a category in c-n. Maps like to put player through annoying bits, it could be stuff from malfunctioning teleporters, unregistering secrets to revival of archviles. That sort of stuff was impossible to control without HUD, so it simply wasn't played and movies like that remained for the most part entirely ignored, and even if they were played, they were almost always overly cautious. HUD actually makes max movies worth undertaking, and I find no honor in forcing oneself through that oldschool annoyance ordeal.

By the way, I'm in no way trying to assimilate or force equal comparision between demos that were recorded with and without HUD. That's nowhere near my point. What I'm trying to say is something that frequent contributors to this thread most likely wouldn't exactly like to hear. Use your imagination what it could be, I don't want to come out as arrogant.

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Tatsurd: really cool af26, you made nice route improvements again and it doesn't look like you watched my demo at all :)

For a timer, you can easily use the map music for checkpoints. That's what I did for my chocodoom demos, but I guess it's easier for musicians.

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TimeOfDeath said:

Tatsurd: really cool af26, you made nice route improvements again and it doesn't look like you watched my demo at all :)

For a timer, you can easily use the map music for checkpoints. That's what I did for my chocodoom demos, but I guess it's easier for musicians.

Thanks! Oh, I didn't notice that ToD had already done af26. My route on af26 was based on my UV-Max route, but my UV-Max route was based on your nice strategy. I watched your af26 yesterday. You got over the blue key's trap with less damage and dealt with a herd of revenants before the blue key's door quickly, though my tactics in the room was just not too good.

I sometimes know the time in a map music, but it depends on each music.

j4rio said:

I find no honor in forcing oneself through that oldschool annoyance ordeal.

What you said made me a little sad. You are not at all bad, but the environment was just changed. Many players who record a demo with prboom seem to use HUD without hesitation. They might regard no HUD as just oldschool or troublesome environment. However, needless to say, no HUD is normal and HUD is an additonal tool from a sorce port. When I came to Doomworld in 2008, many players have already recorded a demo with prboom, but the majority of them hadn't used HUD. They point out its unfair advantages when a new comer used HUD, then he usually stop using it. For example, page 7 on Community Chest Series Demos thread and page 3 on Claustrophobia 1024 Demos thread. It's HUD discussion I have seen first time. After that, the HUD discussion repeated many times and the number of HUD users gradually increased. Grazza and myk said that HUD was a mild type of tool assistance.

I can't stop them from using it, but I was just surprised that a prboom demo would be accepted to C-N and I wanted to protect fair competition in C-N.

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tatsurd-cacocaco said:

What you said made me a little sad. You are not at all bad, but the environment was just changed. Many players who record a demo with prboom seem to use HUD without hesitation. They might regard no HUD as just oldschool or troublesome environment. However, needless to say, no HUD is normal and HUD is an additonal tool from a sorce port.


I did around 20 c-n demos, and found out pretty much no change in how I played, besides getting a little bit higher amount of demos with missing monsters. The thingie I was absolutely annoyed with was that start of each attempt twisted my view always in random direction, so short stuff was automatically out of question.

Also, note that boom introduced HUD, so not using it for cl9 stuff is just your loss, imo.

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j4rio said:

The thingie I was absolutely annoyed with was that start of each attempt twisted my view always in random direction, so short stuff was automatically out of question.


That happens if you don't move your mouse in the loading screen. You have to practice the quick start to get the silly twist under control :-D

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Yeah, speedrunners actually use that to start off in the sr50 position for saving a few tics. I guess it's harder to control with crazy mouse sensitivity, heh.

Also Boom introduced HUD, but afaik it did not have smart totals. I do consider that point moot though, because prboom is obsolete and the last person on Earth using "vanilla" Boom exe is myk. :)

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Well with some boosted sensitivity it's the only way you'll pull it off in prb+. I usually don't bother as it's kinda random and can waste attempt before it starts, especially if map isn't too generous with monster count. There is some sort of mini lag during which you can move mouse and depending on how stuffed with monsters and linedefs map is, the better your chances to do it in prb+.

With dosbox it usually twisted even after quick start followed by moving with mouse. Like this.

Also in dosbox I use(d) pretty much exact same sensitivity as archy, he set up dosbox for me and I just accommodated.

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Yeah, that happens (in the demo) when you don't move your mouse at certain point. I think you have to move your mouse at the loading screen and also at the wipe screen effect to get correct angles at the very beginning and after the quick start.

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So, I've removed upload feature for ports to COMPET-N (they will be available later in separate database) as I got few more complaints :)

I've pushed new client and new database for it so you can play vanilla doom with timer on any system. More info here: http://goo.gl/Ha2YOk

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I think that's disappointing, but at least they will be available in a separate database.

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fx02 said:

I can't satisfy everybody, but some hot chick might :P


You can be a hot chick for me. Just put a wig on.

Wahey, new database is here. Need to find to some time to record stuff now.

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One thing is pretty silly for sure, it's pointless to record demo slower than actual COMPET-N record, right? I'll do some max-es that's sure.

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In that new port is it possible to bind weapons to numpad numbers? Doesn't seem to work to me.

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Even though cndoom is specifically for a category of competn or differing category, could it be used as an alternative for demo use of wads like concerned or unholy realms.

I know chocolate can't play those due to certain vanilla limits

I could always use prboom+ but the thought had just occurred to me that maybe cndoom would be useful for megawads like that.

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