The /newstuff Chronicles #277

Do the molotov cocktails in NeoDoom crash anyone else's computer?

Tormentor667 said:

and if I just got told that my map sucks because "it has not much height variances (it's a flat space station!), not enough open areas and too many reflective floors (it doesn't feature that many GZDoom features at all!)!

Well, it obviuosly wasn't the best choice of location for a Doom level then. But it's best to accept that not everyone is going to love your wad, but to accept their critisism and take it onboard for your next map.

It's a good map, but a map that could of been made alot better with some design changes.

EDIT: NeoDoom was the highlight this newstuff for me.

Homer said:

But it's best to accept that not everyone is going to love your wad, but to accept their critisism and take it onboard for your next map.

Im always fine with criticism but what I do not like is criticism like "This Map Sucks" and as I stated many times before: Deathz0rs review on Sapphire ended up like this, because the map is from me. No one else that stated on Sapphire was that harsh, and most of them had something good to say about the map (next to the things which were bad)...

that's because he's not brainwashed with propoganda.

gargoylol said:

that's because he's not brainwashed with propoganda.

And what do you really want to say with this?

Tormentor667 said:

Im always fine with criticism but what I do not like is criticism like "This Map Sucks" and as I stated many times before: Deathz0rs review on Sapphire ended up like this, because the map is from me. No one else that stated on Sapphire was that harsh, and most of them had something good to say about the map (next to the things which were bad)...

I've had average reviews from him (td6, detahz0r said "Too linear" and nothing else) so I doubt thats the factor. Don't take these reviews the wrong way, this is just one person who dis-liked it, look at how many have enjoyed the map.

Homer said:

this is just one person who dis-liked it, look at how many have enjoyed the map.

That's very true Homer, but Doomworld is something like a Showcase for new wads, you know...

I think these times are long gone. And deathz0r's reviews are the major reason for it.

I can't respect someone who insults others' hard work but himself is happy making intentional crap, euphemistically called joke WADs.

Sapphire's average rating is a fairly good 4/5, so...

I understand deathz0r's criticism but I don't see why he has to make such a big deal out of it. The map may not have the best gameplay ever, but it is impossibly so bad that it "sucks". I smell attention envy.

I thought the gameplay in Sapphire was actually pretty good. The good music and the visual flairs only added, rather than detracted (or distracted, I should say) from the gameplay. In short, I disagree.

I will have to try Enjay's wad, though, looks like fun.

So someone disagrees with deathz0r. Not like it's never happened before. The reviewers' job isn't to ensure people always agree with them.

So someone disagrees with the response. Not like it's never happened before. The forumgoers' job isn't to ensure people always agree with them.

Fredrik said:
I smell attention envy.

Maybe, though that would make things even worse, as I'm not sure the positive attention of newbies or casual players and the more or less negative attention (if any) of more experienced or tactful people is anything to envy. It seems anyway like a way of having a little fun, however impish. But it does detract from the criticism, as in the end it gives the wad maker, though his wad may be quite faulty, a victimized justification to say the review was skewed.

Aside from this possible case, this happens on other occasions.

Na na na na na na na na, DRAMA!

(Robin)-Holy pants-train Batman, the emo bitches are really getting their panties in a twist about this.

(Batman) -Yes Robin, totally gaybar. Good thing I have my anti emofags spray in my batmo-belt. Aw drat, I've forgot to refuel the canister. AAAARGH!

(Robin) -Oh NOES, AAAARG!

(Soundeffect) Boom

(Narrator) Is this the END? Will the DYNAMIC DUO fall victim to emo internet bitches? Don't miss next week's episode of "Newstuff chronicles" where more wads will be criticized and authors will complain about it.

Graf Zahl said:

I think these times are long gone. And deathz0r's reviews are the major reason for it.

I can't respect someone who insults others' hard work but himself is happy making intentional crap, euphemistically called joke WADs.

Deathz0r has produced more then just Joke wads buddy, a lot of which are really nice. When he DOES make joke wads, they are actually well thought out, finding ways to make the levels humerous but not super annoying. He's just not the kind of guy who pays a whole lot of attention to detail. He'll give a super ugly wad a good review as long as it has good gameplay.

The reason why the /Newstuff updates have been so slow is because we don't have enough reviewers. Maybe you should volunteer to review some of the wads that come in.

Tormentor, first of all, no one can't always be perfect. There are times were people can make good wads and then make bad wads. I myself made bad wads over the years but I wouldn't make a big fuss just because I get a bad review.

You can't always go about expecting to be perfect. I have to agree with Deathz0r with the review. Slapping hallways together then expecting people to praise it won't mean its going to get praised.

Also why should anyone care about reviews in the first place? I know I don't.

Tormentor667 said:

This isn't what I've said. While I was developing the map, I showed off many screenshots and I involved the feedback I got from several persons.
I even made this map not that hard at all and the ammo/monster balance is very good this time (this is at least what I and my beta testers thought), and if I just got told that my map sucks because "it has not much height variances (it's a flat space station!), not enough open areas and too many reflective floors (it doesn't feature that many GZDoom features at all!), then I feel unfair threatened... :( I mean, it was obvious that I get something like this from deathz0r if he reads "Tormentor667" as the author of the map...he said nothing good about the map...so is it really that bad?!

For the love of all thing sacred, deal with the fact that you didnt get a good review. If you believe its good thats all that should matter. If you feel a need to be loved (or have something loved) by everyone find a fucking support group. Alternatively go back to the ztheatre, its close enough.

@HobbsTiger1 - My betatesters consisted of Enjay, TheDarkArchon, GrafZahl and BioHazard, all persons which heavily focus on gameplay (just play "Thief - Trail of the Arch-Heretic") and all of them told me, that gameplay is well adjusted and fine, so I actually DID focus on that!

Out of those I only consider Enjay to be a skilled player, and thats only based on what hes made. The rest, either through how they describe wads and such, or in bios case (heh) actual playing with him, arent that great in the dept of lol gameplay.

Case in point about peoples words:

WildWeasel said:

I didn't think the gameplay on Sapphire was that bad compared to, say, TNT:LE. At least it's possible to complete it.

Huge lols. TNT:LE is very completable, even on UV.

GrafLolz said:

I can't respect someone who insults others' hard work but himself is happy making intentional crap, euphemistically called joke WADs.

More like the point of jokewads are above you. It takes actual humor to appreciate them, something you rarely have.

BTW if I had to sum of Sapphire in one word it would be 'sucks'

Carry on

deathz0r hated a map with a lot of detail. Go figure.

I really don't understand why gameplay is such a huge point of dissention around here. Come on, it's DOOM. What exactly makes "good gameplay?" It's all rather subjective; I know people who won't play RTC because it has a story. I personally can't play the original maps any more because of their too-basic design. I'm spoiled by the realism and pseudo-realism that Duke Nukem 3d and Half-Life started. I want my damn maps to LOOK like something.

People react so strongly to deathz0r because he's a jerk. (I don't mean that in a positive or negative way.) He doesn't pull punches, and he doesn't analyze. He just puts down the verdict, usually very harsh, especially if there's a great deal of detail, and doesn't often elaborate.

The sad thing is, there's a lot of people in the doom community who act like him. There seems to be a bit of elitism, and it leads to huge battles between style and substance. There's maps out there that don't look all that great, but play very well; and there's maps that don't play well, but look amazing. Unfortunately, the diehards on both sides are refusing to accept the idea that such a map could exist - the style people insist that old maps can't possibly play well, and the substance people swear on a stack of doom bibles that if it has any amount of artistic design it plays like shit, regardless of whether or not that's true.

I think this is why I spend more time in the looking glass/thief/system shock community than I do in the doom community nowadays. At least zylonbane over at TTLG is funny.

Its a personal thing. Though I'd wager the majority of people who play a 12 year old game arent in it for the realism, they're in it for the action, fights, etc.

HobbsTiger1 said:

BTW if I had to sum of Sapphire in one word it would be 'sucks'

Carry on

You would. And that's why your opinion is worth shit. Sorry!

Graf Zahl said:

You would. And that's why your opinion is worth shit. Sorry!

And that is why you're GrafLolz.

Come back with something more intelligent

I reserve intelligence for people who deserve it.

Moving swiftly on from this before it get's too out of hand: I have to agree with Deathz0r on NeoDoom: It feels like EBDoom with a decent set of maps.

Graf Zahl said:

I reserve intelligence for people who deserve it.

This just in, resorting to personal attacks weakens your argument. Plus, starting shit just might piss a moderator off. You have been warned.

Graf Zahl said:

I reserve intelligence for people who deserve it.

Then pray tell, how do you hold counsel with yourself?

In any case, I care not about your opinion nor you mine. If you cannot leave it at that then I've no problem continuing this spectacle, though as BS indicated its liable to piss a moderator off, and I'm taking the warning to apply to myself as well, given my above statement.

Tormentor667 said:
That's very true Homer, but Doomworld is something like a Showcase for new wads, you know...

Yes, and this week in particular, as in others, that's because deathz0r made the effort to play through the wads and write an opinion of them, whether he liked them or not. Unlike reviewers, mappers do what they like (unless they're messed up or something). Do they need to complain about a review when they've already enjoyed making the wad? Does there not only have to be a review but also a kindly one?

This isn't something you're paying for that people have to go by your every whim, and it's not a celebrity factory. It's just some reviews of wads we can try out an talk a bit about, if we care to.

HobbsTiger1 said:

For the love of all thing sacred, deal with the fact that you didnt get a good review. If you believe its good thats all that should matter. If you feel a need to be loved (or have something loved) by everyone find a fucking support group. Alternatively go back to the ztheatre, its close enough.

Maybe, just maybe, Tormentor put a lot of work into the map and would at least like some respect for the effort exerted. Not everyone may agree that it has good gameplay, but it could at least be acknowledged that the wad does look good. As for the talk about saying he put a bunch of hallways and rooms together, well guess what, we're talking about Doom here. Doom architecture is rather often a series of rooms and hallways. Tormentor stitching a few of those together while sprinkling monsters in them makes him guilty for nothing more than making a doom level.

Holy shit, does everything he does have to be exciting and innovative and zomg krazee? He made a level, it was certainly above average but it's not epic. So the fuck what. Move on with your lives already. It's petty retardcapades like this that compell more mature, who're generally more productive, members to leave the community. I am not productive, however, and that's why I'm still here (though that charge would apply to more people than just myself). Point proven.

Job said:
but it could at least be acknowledged that the wad does look good.

Not sure if I read the same review, but that's what it seems to have done, quite loudly.

Move on with your lives already. It's petty retardcapades like this that compell more mature, who're generally more productive, members to leave the community.

You're invited to start being productive by providing some reviews yourself. Also, I see lots of productive and capable people hanging out here, and that I know of, none of the intelligent ones that left did so because of deathz0r's (or anyone's) reviewing style or comments; more like they wanted to do other things, and had mapped their share of DOOM stuff already.

Deathz0r reviews don't count for me ;P