Much OBLIGEd

Bloodshedder said:

Ask SargeBaldy about this - he and some other people made a project with "revamped" SLIGE maps with a bunch of stuff added to them. It was rejected from the archives, so...

Strange... I haven't seen those maps, but if the maps still had poor or obviously automated layouts maybe that makes sense, on the other hand, if they were reworked considerably and showed competent additions from the authors, they should be as good as any new level.

At least it would be something worth discussing publicly in the community, from where Ty could draw what constitutes a "SLIGE level", and what makes a level that merely uses SLIGE as one of the tools for its production.

It would make sense for anyone looking to make such a wad and wanting to upload it to the archive to contact Ty in advance (he requests that this is done in cases where there is any doubt).

I don't know if that happened in the aforementioned case (I don't recall hearing about the maps at all in fact - I thought the "Slige modification project" was stillborn, but anyway...), but maybe Ty just saw Slige mentioned in the txt and immediately rejected it on the assumption that any modifications were minor.

Ok, this is my first post. Yay.

Anyway, the product is definitely in motion. I do agree with fixing that human-skin/tech door thing, but things show that this may soon be the next SLIGE. Obviously, the theme idea is good; but currently this random theme is still very nice. I also like the two methods of a watermark, and using them more than once (thus making them 250% more steal proof). Just one suggestion. Put in the BFG. Do you realize that might make you the first to do so!? Anyway, happy programing!

EDIT: Forget the suggestion. On the third map of the first oblige wad created, I found the BFG 9000. Yay. Also, the fifth level of that same wad was nearly completely E1 style.

EDIT 2: Actually I think it was the sixth map. For your infomation, it was a Full Game, Doom 2, Single Player, enough ammo, enough health, hordes of monsters, and heaps of traps. I think the seed number was in the 3000's. If the first map has the watermark box to the left of the center column, that's the seed number.

Personally, I'm against having any computer generated maps what-so-ever in the archive. It defeats the purpose entirely. I don't care how much you rework it; if you like an area that Oblige has made, go recreate it in your own map. Problem solved.

I think it's a fun tool to come up with ideas, for sure. But c'mon people, modifying a computer generated layout? It would be a waste of time because the amount of modifying would be insane. In the amount of time it would take to detail something like that, you could have made your very own unique level without the help of a computer. Besides, these maps, while impressive in their own right, are a poor subsitute for real human input, especially when it comes to traps, keys, and the general flow of a level.

That's just how I see it, atleast.

That said, I love this program. Very fun to just mess around with and see what kind of neat stuff it spits out. Can't wait for future releases.

Quite fun and it makes playable, reasonable maps. However, even by my second map I was beginning to recognise features and predict traps.

Dittohead said:
Personally, I'm against having any computer generated maps what-so-ever in the archive. It defeats the purpose entirely. I don't care how much you rework it; if you like an area that Oblige has made, go recreate it in your own map. Problem solved.

That's kind of like saying prefabs or copy pasting are bad. Sometimes they are, but that's a matter of how they are used, but not necessarily that the technique is useless or should be disallowed completely. Or like saying elecrtonic music like "DJs" make isn't music. I mean, the opinion is valid and even sometimes expected, especially personally, but how much should that define what's possible or right in general?

Or even using someone else's map as a base starts off with a base you didn't do any work on...

You're also pretty much shitting on the tool and generalizing, prejudging a lot of possible work that could be quite woirthwhile (not you personally with your opinion, of course: I mean if one uses such a standard to judge these partly automated wads for the archive). Someone could use OBLIGE, SLIGE or a similar program to do something pretty interesting. I recall a 10 sectors entry by aardappel (sp?) using some script, forming a level made up of hexagons, which was worthwhile in its own way.

It seems to me that the spirit of Ty's ban on SLIGE stuff and whatnot is to keep piles of automated junk at bay, and not to stifle possibly interesting work that uses automating features or programs. It's also pretty much our responsibility to be on the lookout for such things and to tip him off about any exceptions or problems, because Ty can't be examining every wad that comes in personally.

Enjay, that map was MAP32. Back on topic, the idea should be that minorly edited levels = bad, majorly edited levels = ok.

PS: Is there any download link for that Slige Modification Project?

Chain Mail said:

That's kind of like saying prefabs or copy pasting are bad. Sometimes they are, but that's a matter of how they are used, but not necessarily that the technique is useless or should be disallowed completely. Or like saying elecrtonic music like "DJs" make isn't music. I mean, the opinion is valid and even sometimes expected, especially personally, but how much should that define what's possible or right in general?

Or even using someone else's map as a base starts off with a base you didn't do any work on...

You're also pretty much shitting on the tool and generalizing, prejudging a lot of possible work that could be quite woirthwhile (not you personally with your opinion, of course: I mean if one uses such a standard to judge these partly automated wads for the archive). Someone could use OBLIGE, SLIGE or a similar program to do something pretty interesting. I recall a 10 sectors entry by aardappel (sp?) using some script, forming a level made up of hexagons, which was worthwhile in its own way.

It seems to me that the spirit of Ty's ban on SLIGE stuff and whatnot is to keep piles of automated junk at bay, and not to stifle possibly interesting work that uses automating features or programs. It's also pretty much our responsibility to be on the lookout for such things and to tip him off about any exceptions or problems, because Ty can't be examining every wad that comes in personally.

I see your point. But, as a level author myself, there is a certain skill that it takes to be able to build a level in it's entirety, no matter how good or bad it may be. I don't know how much respect I can have for someone who uses a program to build the general layout of a level. Fact is, you are basing your work off of someone else's. It's not original work and it shouldn't be allowed into the archives. Layout is not a subtle detail; it's an entirety. So let's not compare that to petty copy/pasting which is a whole nother discussion.

I have nothing against Oblige. Matter of fact, I'm helping along in it's development. I think it's a great tool for coming up with ideas and for quick fun. I'm not saying nobody should be allowed to modify an Oblige map... I'm just saying I don't want it in the archives.

As the Oblige author, my only qualms in releasing it (apart from the quality of the code:) was the people who'd upload the levels to the archives as their own work, increasing the burden on the archive maintainers like Ty.

Therefore I added some distinguishable features, some data in the wad and some logos in the levels, so at least someone would have to remove them (requiring some ability to use wad editing tools, as well as some _effort_) before they could pass it off as their own.

EDIT: I'd also be interested in the Slige Modification Project, to give me some ideas how to generate better levels.

This thing rocks pretty hard. One thing I gotta say, though, is that consistant themes need to be enforced more! Also, maybe some effort to reduce the amount of switch quests and backtracking, and maybe a little user input on how big the level should be, how many open spaces, etc. Of course, those would just be nice. I can still play this for a long while anyway. I like how it makes decent looking levels. Like, I can't actually tell it was made by a computer besides some of the inane nonsymmetries and the watermarks and the lack of angles. And some of the layouts this thing produces are pretty cool. Another good thing is that it'll make pretty difficult levels if you want it to. This is bound to replace SLIGE as numero uno computer generated doom level maker if you keep working on it.

Dittohead said:

Fact is, you are basing your work off of someone else's. It's not original work and it shouldn't be allowed into the archives.

There's nothing against basing your work on an existing base as long as you have the author's permission. There's an entry in the TXT template for that, after all. My point is that wads using such a tool should be judged on a case by case basis. What you judge is the result and the work put into the upload, and both could be considerable and exceptional even starting from a random template or layout.

For example, someone could a speedmapping session where each participant generates a SLIGE or OBLIGE map, that is then modified. Then the maps could be judged by the admins of the competition and the good ones uploaded (the best ones or all the ones that qualify as creative).

Chain Mail said:

There's nothing against basing your work on an existing base as long as you have the author's permission. There's an entry in the TXT template for that, after all. My point is that wads using such a tool should be judged on a case by case basis. What you judge is the result and the work put into the upload, and both could be considerable and exceptional even starting from a random template or layout.

For example, someone could a speedmapping session where each participant generates a SLIGE or OBLIGE map, that is then modified. Then the maps could be judged by the admins of the competition and the good ones uploaded (the best ones or all the ones that qualify as creative).

The problem I have with your first idea is how easily it would be to remove all indictive watermarks on the map and pass it off as original work. I go back to my original sentiment; if you like a layout that Oblige has created, then re-create it in your own map. There is nothing wrong with being inspired, afterall. Because of the wide range of skill between mappers, we can't individually judge each map before we allow it in the archives. If we let one oblige-based map in, then we'd have to allow all of them. It would simply not work out.

I do like your second idea, however. I would also find it interesting to see what people can do with something like that. Whether or not that should be allowed into the archives would be up to the archive maintainer, as would all of this.