The /newstuff Chronicles #411

j4rio said:

To put it objectively, it's more funny and took more effort than all your wads combined. ;-)


Care to explain why? Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass. At least I try to be funny with my wads.

1. The picture looked like crap.
2. I just didn't find it funny.

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hex11 said:

What's to stop someone else from reviewing that PWAD in this very thread? I mean, instead of engaging in pointless arguments (they'll never really end, it's just a waste of time) just bite the bullet and present an alternative review.

It wouldn't be the first time it happened. For the record, I don't think SF2011 is quite NewGothic1 or anything, but the demos were really enjoyable to watch. I always appreciate watching players waaaaay beyond my skill dominate a map.

I can now rest easily knowing that Slaughterfest sits comfortably alongside Scythe X, Stronghold, and 64 Lemons as drama-wads for /newstuff. Always nice to see it pop up every once in a while!

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Doomguy 2000 said:

At least I try to be funny with my wads.

Woah woah woah... What? You're trying with that shit?

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dew said:

you're like a fucking creationist yelling there's no evidence for evolution.


Ah...the straws you grasp at in order to continue a losing argument. It's very clear that the only reason you and Myk are so intent on taking the side opposite mine on this issue is that you have a personal problem with me.

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Use3D said:

  • Xtreme Zdoom wad - Various
    Doom 2 - ZDoom - Solo Play - 6109465 bytes
    [/b]Reviewed by:[b] Use3d
    This extreme zdoom wad is the dumbest thing I've ever played! Oh wow a portal with some boxes up there, gimme a break. Gimme STARTAN and some imps over this scripted stupid shit. 3 MORE REMAINING. Wow never seen that before. Hey there's a green baron who throws purple things; instant FAIL. This wad SUCKS.

What a sad reminder of deathz0r's reviewing weeks that is, when openly insulting any release with flaws was the norm at Doomworld ("because we're blunt and honest"), making it seem like playing without ZDoom gimmicks was better than enjoy some variety. I'm so glad the system got changed. Not to seem like I'm defending dishonesty — I just prefer argumentation, and today's reviews are verbose enough to offer that.

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While I've got my rage on actually...

myk said:

That said, pretending to speak as an "average doomer" stands between the pretentiousness of assumed spokesmanship and self-denigration to a common denominator or stereotype.

lulwut? Where is he pretending to be an average doomer? He clearly is an average player (as in: not particularly skilled; middle-of-the-road interests in maps/projects; open to new experiences; has his own preferences; little in the way of mapping/modding experience) as is evident from his reviews - that's not pretentious or self-denigration, that's him. How did you not choke on the taste of bullshit when saying this?!

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Doomguy 2000 said:

Care to explain why? Otherwise you're just talking out of your ass. At least I try to be funny with my wads.

1. The picture looked like crap.
2. I just didn't find it funny.


I'd admit to just about anybody that the picture is just silly crap, but you are an exception. You're not allowed to call it unfunny crap. I'm darn serious that I find the silly picture better than everything you've ever made so far. Combined. And the fact you were 'trying' just makes it more funny than it already is.

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Phobus said:

Imagine if Slaughterfest 2011 had got a shining review

why? are we in a bipolar world where reviews are either praising or damning? that's stupid. if the review spent one tenth of the time analyzing the wad like the comments do, it'd surely get at least some facts right and everyone would be happy.

have YOU tried looking at the DSDA demos yet?

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Why would I want to do that? I've already made it completely clear that I don't care about, or for, the style of the maps in question and why this is so. It's the completely unwarranted backlash for the review that's bothering me.

Speaking of getting facts right, now that I've cleaned up that he has indeed pointed out (in the review) that he's not a good enough player to beat it legitimately and that the review was (shockingly enough) his opinion that it's unbeatable for most players - rather than some sort of statement of law like you lot are making out - there aren't really many more facts to cover. He stated that there's a number of maps, some included .bex patches (and their effects) and ultimately concluded that he doesn't like the majority of it, but conceded that a couple of the maps were pretty good for his tastes. There's no way in hell you lot would be happy, because the review isn't the opinion you wanted, which therefore has prompted you to assert that there's some sort of factual inaccuracy (or now, that he apparently didn't bother analysing it properly before giving an opinion, despite stating that he tried all 32 maps and each of the included patches and even seems to have varied difficulties, more than most reviews would ever do) rather than just dealing with the fact that he doesn't like what you like. The fact that it has a huge demo scene is only relevant to the fact that he believes it isn't beatable. End of the day, he can watch those demos all he likes, he isn't good enough to beat the .WAD and very little changes - as far as he and most other players are concerned, they aren't a challenge that can be overcome.

As for the bipolar review thing: you're deliberately avoiding the point I made there with that example to try and invalidate it. THAT is stupid.

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this unrepentant defence of a bad review is getting tiring. if you can't even admit there is something wrong with it, you cannot be helped. good day.

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Hell, I'd love to see a legitimate complaint, rather than "but he doesn't like it!" (tough shit), "but he's not said it's for slaughter gods!" (in a round-about way, he has), "but he's wrong about it being beatable!" (covered this - it's his opinion and a legitimate one for the majority of players) or "his review doesn't tell people what they want to know" (for the majority of us, it tells us everything we need and a bit more besides).

The one real mistake he made IMO is to bother wasting his time in the first place. There's a reason I didn't touch it when I was clearing out the backlog of projects a couple of weeks ago and there's a reason I've not been touching projects for Heretic, HeXen or Strife, as well as multi-player projects and weapon mods: I know I'm not interested to begin with. Thing is, he seems to think he's alright with slaughter maps (and cites HR2 as something he'd recommend for such things), so he had some interest in it and gave it a go and gave us the review, freeing up one of the more recent projects in the /newstuff centre and giving us a pretty accessible opinion. If you wanted some in-depth analysis of how it compares to the greats of it's genre, you should have done it yourself, because that's the only way to guarantee such a thing happens in a volunteer-based system. Fact is most of us simply don't give a shit about it, in much the same way that we don't care how Doomguy's Warzone compares to glassyman's "jokewads" from a while back.

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When myk steps in, whatever side of the argument he has chosen to support becomes the correct one.

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What's to stop someone else from reviewing that PWAD in this very thread?


What's to stop anyone from reading comments as such? Where you see pointless arguments I see information, complementary to the review even if often in opposition with it - i.e., the maps are beatable on the highest difficulty without .bex patch, link to demo proof, difficulty is on the high end of the scale, and the amount of arguing in itself can perhaps imply it's something people either strongly like or strongly dislike.

Beyond that, in this specific scenario with the gameplay being somewhat niche and most people who 1) like this sort of stuff and 2) are active on Doomworld having contributed to SF2011 in some way, there's not really that big of a pool of possible reviewers - before you even consider motivation to do so.

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j4rio said:

To put it objectively, it's more funny and took more effort than all your wads combined. ;-)

Starving to death in a lightless, caved-in grotto is more funny than any of DG2K's production so far.

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Gez said:

Starving to death in a lightless, caved-in grotto is more funny than any of DG2K's production so far.

lol

printz said:

When myk steps in, whatever side of the argument he has chosen to support becomes the correct one.

lol no

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This thread brings the lulz and grief. So much subjectiveness, ego, aggression and personal attacks. Props to myk for staying chill and writing quality posts, and not just rants about how stupid everyone else is.

Also fmv, please review more extreme wads in future, that sf2011 review was incredibly funny to read. The claims and arguments there are just priceless, you made my day.

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The arguments here are prime examples of why this community has been in its death throes for quite some time now. Everyone is certain that the way they play the game is the right way and everything else is unacceptable and deserving of ridicule. This isn't the only gaming community where this sort of attitude abounds, of course, but here it prevails and will undoubtedly be this community's ultimate undoing.

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Everyone is certain that the way they play the game is the right way and everything else is unacceptable and deserving of ridicule.

Not everyone at all, only 11/30.

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myk said:

I recall Anders Johnsen's pretty negative review of HR2. It certainly didn't raise the sort of response seen here.


Heh, I'd like to have a read of that. Do you happen to have link?

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Herculine said:

The arguments here are prime examples of why this community has been in its death throes for quite some time now. Everyone is certain that the way they play the game is the right way and everything else is unacceptable and deserving of ridicule. This isn't the only gaming community where this sort of attitude abounds, of course, but here it prevails and will undoubtedly be this community's ultimate undoing.

loldrama

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Herculine said:

Everyone is certain that the way they play the game is the right way and everything else is unacceptable and deserving of ridicule.


If it's not vanilla, it's crap! :P

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Herculine said:

The arguments here are prime examples of why this community has been in its death throes for quite some time


Not even close

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j4rio said:

I'd admit to just about anybody that the picture is just silly crap, but you are an exception. You're not allowed to call it unfunny crap. I'm darn serious that I find the silly picture better than everything you've ever made so far. Combined. And the fact you were 'trying' just makes it more funny than it already is.


So you can't come up with any good reasons as to why it's funny? This further shows that this community has no sense of humor. I still have my opinions on what I think is funny, doesn't disqualify me from stating my opinions.

According to certain logic you're not allowed to criticize Slaughterfest otherwise you're an idiot of suck at this game. I choose slaughterfest 2011 as the worst wad and it turned the entire thread into discussing slaghtermaps in general.

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You're right Doomguy 2000. SF2012 is officially cancelled because of the risk of killing the Doom community. We are very sorry for our actions.

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j4rio said:
Heh, I'd like to have a read of that. Do you happen to have link?

Here you go.

Phobus said:
He clearly is an average player (as in: not particularly skilled; middle-of-the-road interests in maps/projects; open to new experiences; has his own preferences; little in the way of mapping/modding experience) as is evident from his reviews

That's an impression you get. It's not like we're checking all the time exactly what skill we all have. He may well be better than me and I don't go around pretending to interpret the average player because it's a risky and confusing stereotype, more so when it gets mixed with tastes, which is inevitable in reviews. I brought it up more to address its use as an excuse in the comments rather than anything that shines out of the review itself. Please read the rest of my posts as well, instead of riding your rage train through that fragment, because this aspect is tied to what I said about covering interested niches in the reviews... and not just for slaughter maps! More than "the average player" we can instead make comments to appease a broader audience, which is a very mixed bag.

This judgment about the obviousness of what an "average player" is reminded me of what happened the other day in Paraguay, where their legislators deposed the president in a vote after a "political trial" in only 2 days because he was guilty, more or less, due to "reasons of common knowledge."

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Memfis said:

j4rio: I guess this is it - http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doomworld-news/21734-hell-revealed-2-demopack/2/
(wasn't too hard to find, just googled "site:doomworld.com "andy johnsen" hell revealed 2")

myk said:

Here you go.


Thanks!

Doomguy 2000 said:

So you can't come up with any good reasons as to why it's funny? This further shows that this community has no sense of humor. I still have my opinions on what I think is funny, doesn't disqualify me from stating my opinions.

According to certain logic you're not allowed to criticize Slaughterfest otherwise you're an idiot of suck at this game. I choose slaughterfest 2011 as the worst wad and it turned the entire thread into discussing slaghtermaps in general.


Nope, you're right. I totally can't come up with a reason why it's funny. There's actually no humour in it whatsoever as it was just a poke at gggmork's grumpy post in sf thread. Yet I still find it more funny than your whole wadmaking career. Ironic, isn't it?

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dew said:

this unrepentant defence of a bad review is getting tiring. if you can't even admit there is something wrong with it, you cannot be helped. good day.


TRANSLATION: I hate this review, so you should too. I can't successfully argue that the review is bad, so I'm gonna leave the discussion, but act as though I've won the argument even though I failed to produce compelling evidence for my case.

myk said:

Please read the rest of my posts as well, instead of riding your rage train through that fragment, because this aspect is tied to what I said about covering interested niches in the reviews... and not just for slaughter maps! More than "the average player" we can instead make comments to appease a broader audience, which is a very mixed bag.


Instead of asking others to read your wonderful posts, you might do yourself a favor and re-read the review. The reviewer notes that "a map may be playable and possible, but that doesn't mean it's well-designed or well-textured" and that "It also doesn't mean that the map won't be boring." He goes on to say that "If you want a good slaughter megaWAD experience, try some of the classics". From these statements we can easily see that the reviewer is not just hating on slaughter maps. He has played every level of SF2011, and he believes that even for a slaughter wad, SF2011 falls short. So this idea that he's somehow being unfair to "interested niches" is ludicrous.

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Vordakk said:
So this idea that he's somehow being unfair to "interested niches" is ludicrous.

And who's idea is that, other than a strawman? Neither have I implied in any way that fullmetalvaran33 hates slaughter maps. There's a big difference between hate and some lack of familiarity. To say it's unfair would imply that slaughter map enthusiasts felt the review helped drive away other slaughter fans, but the issue here is wasting a review on pretty useless and predictable commentary (a mere extension with some details of "this is too hard") rather than really addressing its worth as a slaughter map set, aside from negative or positive conclusions. Do we want the text file to prove a better review than the review?

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