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deldelda

Paradoxes and long posts to try to answer them

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mystic said:

Do you actually believe that all the matter in the universe was one big lump of rock that exploded??

Uh

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The fact that the universe is finite and the fact that it originated in the Big Bang are not just mathematical fantasies. They comply with all physical observations that have been made.

Your claims (among them that you've studied astronomy for 30 years) are infinitely amusing, though.

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I'm sorry Mystic, but just as it is your opinion that astronomy is crap, so it is my opinion that astrology is crap. You don't have to get all worked up about it, it's just opinions.

Besides, it's not just your own tax money that's being spend on astronomy. It's everybodies tax money. And since a sufficiently large portion of the people think astronomy should be funded, it's funded. That's how democracy works. If you think astrology should be funded instead then try to change people's mind with a good discussion. And a good discussion does not involve calling other people fools.

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mystic said:

That wonderful equipment astronomers use only tells them what its designed to tell them. Try getting them to explain the rings around Saturn, something they have been running away from ever since that probe took close up pictures of them which showed that they defy the laws of physics, unless they start to embrace the metaphysical (as galileo did) they will never really see the truth.

What are you talking about?

The rings of Saturn obey the laws of physics just as anything else does. You have a very large number of small particles of ice and rock, each in stable orbit around the planet. The particles are debris, the same kind of rocky junk that forms terrestrial planets. Their orbit is inside Saturn's Roche limit, the point at which the gravity of the planet is greater than the gravity that would attract the particles together to eventually form a planetoid. The rings are held in place by the stable tidal forces between Saturn itself and its many moons. Gravity also formed and holds the rings of Jupiter, Uranus, and Neptune, although those planets have rings too sparse and not reflective enough to be visible from Earth-based optical telescopes.

I paraphrased that from my introductory astronomy textbook. There is nothing to suggest that physicists or astronomers have been "running away" from the issue; hell, they've tackled it head-on with what resources they have at their disposal. I don't pretend to be any kind of expert, I'm just taking care of a science elective over the summer, and even I understand this shit.

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Just tell me this, mystic: How can you prove that the universe is infinite and has no beginning or end?

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Heh, mystic. Are you sure that the field of astronomy has already been flourishing since the Stone Age (or whatever era you live in)?

:P

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Fredrik said:

In regards to the .999 issue, I found this recent answer at The Straight Dope.

That's a very good article.

The article says:
The mind (yes, even mine) instinctively rebels at this conclusion. We readily concede that .999~ gets infinitely close to 1--to put it in mathematical terms, 1 is the sum of the converging infinite series .9 + .09 + .009 + . . . But, we protest, .999~ never quite reaches that limit. If at any step we halt the progression to infinity to take a sum, we find that we remain separated from 1 by some infinitesimal amount.

That's exactly the reason why I earlier doubted about 0.999~ = 1. But the article gives a nice explanation of why this line of thinking is incorrect.

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mystic said:

That wonderful equipment astronomers use only tells them what its designed to tell them. Try getting them to explain the rings around Saturn, something they have been running away from ever since that probe took close up pictures of them which showed that they defy the laws of physics, unless they start to embrace the metaphysical (as galileo did) they will never really see the truth.

Do you actually believe that all the matter in the universe was one big lump of rock that exploded?? If so Im wasting my time arguing here, its pointless arguing with a fool. The universe is infinite, it has no end, had no beginning, its always been there, it always will be there, constantly changing and evolving and it does not obey the silly little laws made for it by men. With the universe being infinite it follows that there is an infinite number of galaxies etc in that universe and also that there are no paralel universes, that is just some thought excercise which folk, as usual, accept as fact because someone clever came up with it using expensive equipment. Also, something that is infinite doesnt expand, infinity is endless so has no boundaries to expand beyond, a lot of folk have a problem with that concept so make up silly theories. Clever mathematical theories about the universe are just that, nothing more, just because a theory can be proved on paper using fancy maths does not make that theory truth. The universe is blissfully unaware of the laws we make for it and will carry on creating stuff our science will never really understand until it learns to embrace the metaphysical again, maybe not even then.

Saturn: The core of the planet may hold the key. Gravity fluctuations man. Gravity fluctuations.

Universe: Prove it. There is a beginning because the way everything is moving away from the center. There is an end because there is NOTHING outside of it.

DooMBoy said:

Military Intelligence

We, as human beings, want peace; yet we are going to destroy everything in our path to achieve it.

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Arno said:

My math teachers always explained it to me as "0.999~ = 1 because 0.333~ = 1/3".

The only thing you can be sure of is that that doesn't make any sense at all.

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ravage said:

Universe: Prove it. There is a beginning because the way everything is moving away from the center. There is an end because there is NOTHING outside of it.

As I've pointed out before in previous threads, this doesnt have to be the case. You can have a finite universe with no edge and no center.

I'd suggest you read this.

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Actually what he just said makes no sense at all. And what our esteemed astronomers imagine is the centre of the universe is actually just an area of the part of the universe we inhabit, lmfao, it amuses me the way the thought of an infinite universe scares some folk.
Something puzzles me about the finite universe folks, what do they imagine is outside the universe, then outside whatever that is etc. Take a wisdom pill, its infinite, doesnt make sense for it to be anything else, except to the folk who are obsessed with all the silly theories being made up or it

Q. WTF are gravity fluctuations?
A. Something scientists made up in a feeble attempt to explain the odd way the rings around Saturn behave

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mystic said:

Actually what he just said makes no sense at all. And what our esteemed astronomers imagine is the centre of the universe is actually just an area of the part of the universe we inhabit, lmfao, it amuses me the way the thought of an infinite universe scares some folk.
Something puzzles me about the finite universe folks, what do they imagine is outside the universe, then outside whatever that is etc. Take a wisdom pill, its infinite, doesnt make sense for it to be anything else, except to the folk who are obsessed with all the silly theories being made up or it

Read the link I gave you. It explains it.

The astronomers dont imagine a Universe with a center or an edge. They imagine a Universe which is curved and has no edge or center. "outside" the Universe has no meaning.

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Like fraggle said, the universe has no outside, instead it wraps like the surface of the Earth (but in one extra dimension).

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Like I said before, take a wisdom pill, that makes absolutely no sense at all, and Im already familiar with that 'theory'.
It may come as a surprise to you that the folks who come up with those ideas dont expect people to accept it as fact, merely as a thought excercise, thats all it is.
Those guys know the universe is infinite but they still need those research grants

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WTF is a wisdom pill? Something that blinds you to anything else but astrology?

I understand what you're trying to say mystic - you shouldn't always take science (especially theoretical stuff about the origins of the universe) as pure 'fact'. There's nothing wrong in questioning it - in fact, that's the only way we can advance. But then, that doesn't mean I should automtaically believe astorlogy instead.

Some people decide to choose the evidence form science, you obviously the evidencd from astrology. I'm sure there's a million other ways to look at it.

But don't go round trying to make out you have more 'wisdom' than the people who don't believe in your particular theory. At least we've seen some sort of evidence from the scientific perspective. I don't see such thoughful debate coming out of your posts.

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mystic said:

Take a wisdom pill, its infinite, doesnt make sense for it to be anything else, except to the folk who are obsessed with all the silly theories being made up or it

Wow, you are unbelievable. You firmly believe that the universe is infinite, although you don't have any proof at all for it. You also believe that a 4-dimensional finite universe is impossible, although there's no way you can disprove it. It's hard to believe that someone who has shown interest in astrology can be so close-minded.

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Fredrik said:

Like fraggle said, the universe has no outside, instead it wraps like the surface of the Earth (but in one extra dimension).

What, so the universe is like an inverted sphere?

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ravage said:

What, so the universe is like an inverted sphere?

No, more like the surface of a 4-dimensional sphere.

mystic said:

Like I said before, take a wisdom pill, that makes absolutely no sense at all,

What part of it doesnt make sense?

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DooMBoy said:

Military Intelligence

DooMBoy's best post ever.

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Im not the one with the closed mind, the fact that the infinite universe cant be proved doesnt mean its not true, its impossible to prove something is infinite, which is exactly why you lot dont like it, it cant be packaged up in a neat little mathematical theory.

Im not saying any more on that subject, Im secure in the knowledge that I am right and you are so very wrong.

hehehe

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mystic said:

Im not the one with the closed mind, the fact that the infinite universe cant be proved doesnt mean its not true, its impossible to prove something is infinite, which is exactly why you lot dont like it, it cant be packaged up in a neat little mathematical theory.

Question: If the Universe has existed for an infinite length of time into the past, why is the sky black?

If the Universe is not expanding, why are all the galaxies we see red shifted?

If you have some kind of legitimate theory that explains these things, put it forward. My mind is open to theories that have scientific basis. All you seem to have said so far is "U R DUMB LOLOLO"

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You can't prove the universe is infinite. But then, you can't prove the big bang or that the universe is in fact in 4 dimensions either. You can't prove something that is only theory. You can offer evidence in support of your theory, but not really conclusive 'proof'.

Perhaps if you provided some evidence for your position people would listen to what you have to say.

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all these things are our minds trying to make us beleive we are more advanced than we actually are.
It is just as good as trying to draw a map of an existing doom level just from numbers of each object in the map (including linedefs and whatever) and the types of each object.
It isn't very likely that the known level will be anything like the created level except the numbers of monsters and such will be the same.

I call it the doom map theory. I just thought it up.

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mystic said:

Im not saying any more on that subject, Im secure in the knowledge that I am right and you are so very wrong.

With one sentence, mystic summarizes and demonstrates everything that is wrong with humanity.

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Another reason some folks refuse to accept the truth about the universe being infinite is because it makes us (humans) absolutely insignificant, only really important to ourselves. Yup, we are all of us insignificant nothings in a endless, constantly changing universe and no amount of fancy maths is ever going to change that fact.

Im laughing my ass of at anyone asking me to prove the universe is infinite. I dont need to, it is, I accept it as such and Im learning to live with my godless insignificance.

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