Two for the Price of One -- US & Israel

The Flange Peddler said:

America or Israel?

-1, Troll.

Grimm's intended meaning was perfectly clear.

Maybe. But the point stands as to why there is such international double standards as to why some people are 'allowed' nukes and others not.

If I could, I'd get rid all of the nukes in the world and be done with it. But unfortunently, things don't work that way. If all the nations of the world gave up their nukes, there'd be the inevitable Bad Guy that could nuke us all. Granted, whether we have nukes don't exactly change whether or not Mr. Madman decides to nuke us, but it does function as a deterrent. Anyway, the nations that "get to have nukes" are the winners--in this case, the Allies of World War II.

As for your article fodders, kinda intersting, but being that I wasn't sure of half the terms in there, it really didn't do to much for me. Also, the lack of sources was pitiful, and the fact that it was on the "Islamic Association for Palestine" site--well, as far as I'm concerned, that has about as much weight behind it as if I went to a Ku Klux Klan site and read an article about how blacks and jews are the scourge of the world.

Grimm said:

As for your article fodders, kinda intersting, but being that I wasn't sure of half the terms in there, it really didn't do to much for me. Also, the lack of sources was pitiful, and the fact that it was on the "Islamic Association for Palestine" site--well, as far as I'm concerned, that has about as much weight behind it as if I went to a Ku Klux Klan site and read an article about how blacks and jews are the scourge of the world.

Ahhh ok British history learning site
The History of British Military Conflicts since 1945
Good old "what really happened" .com

This terrorist act of the Israelis is so well documented I assumed most people were cognisant of it. It's my bête noire of Israel screaming about terrorist attacks against her, when they more or less started the cycle.
The King David Hotel terrorist attack was a Brit history thing, perhaps you should look closer to home, look at the USS Liberty :)

Heh...we even learned about those things in Senior Soc, the biggest propaganda class of all time. Damn, I hated that class, and learned nothing from it.

Huh, enlightening. I didn't realize Israel was quite that determined. I knew that their "CIA" assainated people almost regularly, but I didn't realize it went that went far. Well. Still, no matter what, what some Israel governmental groups may have done has no bearing on her people. Whether or not Israel did atrocious things does not justify the terroist attacks the Palestinians have been making. I mean, Jesus, buses, dance clubs . . . horrible shit. And I don't even understand why they pick out civillians. That'll only anger Israel more, pointlessly. If they had any brains, they'd go after officials. At least that might do something. Anyway, I've never heard of the U.S.S. Liberty. Care to offer up some nice, unbiased links? (Frankly, I don't trust whatreallyhappened.com. It seems pretty damn biased to me.)

World Zionist Organisation

What the Hell is this? Sounds like those worldewide Jewish conspiracy organizations anti-Semitics talk about.

THe U.S.S. Liberty was a destroyer that I think was in the Persian Gulf, and it was sunk by Israel. I forget if it was with a cruise missle or a bomber of some sort. So yeah, basicaly we had a ship sunk by our 'ally'.

Grimm said:

And I don't even understand why they pick out civillians. That'll only anger Israel more, pointlessly. If they had any brains, they'd go after officials.

As ALL citizens have to join the Armed forces, the Palestinians view is that EVERYONE is either a member of, was once a member, or will eventually BE a member of the Israeli armed forces, so are a valid target.

the_Danarchist said:

THe U.S.S. Liberty was a destroyer that I think was in the Persian Gulf, and it was sunk by Israel. I forget if it was with a cruise missle or a bomber of some sort. So yeah, basicaly we had a ship sunk by our 'ally'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_attack_on_USS_Liberty

Grimm said:

Anyway, I've never heard of the U.S.S. Liberty. Care to offer up some nice, unbiased links? (Frankly, I don't trust whatreallyhappened.com. It seems pretty damn biased to me.)

Counter Punch CounterPunch is the bi-weekly muckraking newsletter edited by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair. (Author)
BBC documentary part 1

Part 2

Washington Report (The Washington Report is published by the American Educational Trust (AET), a non-profit foundation incorporated in Washington, DC by retired U.S. foreign service officers to provide the American public with balanced and accurate information concerning U.S. relations with Middle Eastern states.)

læmænt said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_attack_on_USS_Liberty

See? I told you I forgot everyhting I learned in school!

Zionist:
"Zion" = "The city of God." "Zionist" is the term used to describe a proponent of a powerful, imperialistic Jewish ("the people of God") state. Typically, Zionism has no regard for anything but Zionism. The rest of the world is irrelevant and an obstacle to Zionist objectives.

Guys, I think you should give it up. Trying to convince Grimm that anything against his values is in fact the truth is like trying to conivnce the KKK that the Blacks and Jews AREN'T the scourge of the Earth.

Grimm: A site that successfully proves you wrong in a legitmate way is NOT biased. You apparently think that everything opposite to what you believe in is "biased" for some strange reason.

To broaden the scope and make it "Three for the price of one" and invite N Korea...





This one got censored so is hard to find :P

This is why it's hard to find the truth behind conspiracy theories:

1.During the day preceding the attack, the ship was flown over by several aircraft. . . .

Since the morning hours of June 8, 1967, the ship has been steaming from the coast of Israel proper westwards to the coast of Sinai, where the battle "action" was taking place. On the afternoon of that day the ship was steaming at about 5 knots on the boundary of international and coastal waters approximately 13 miles off the coast of the Sinai Peninsula near El-Arish. At about 2 p.m. the ship was attacked by several aircraft - most probably, a pair of Mirage IIIs carrying cannon and rockets and Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm.

2.Only hours after the Liberty arrived it was spotted by the Israeli military. The IDF sent out reconnaissance planes to identify the ship. They made eight trips over a period of three hours. The Liberty was flying a large US flag and was easily recognizable as an American vessel.

A few hours later more planes came. These were Israeli Mirage III fighters, armed with rockets and machine guns. As off-duty officers sunbathed on the deck, the fighters opened fire on the defenseless ship with rockets and machine guns.

Doesn't the first one say that the Liberty was first spotted a day before the attack? Yet, the second sez it all happened on the same day. Bah, whatever.

There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.

*bias*

Anyway, thanks for enlightening me, y'all. :) There's certainly something fishy abouts there. Especially given what those witnesses said on the page I quoted last. (Of course, you should always check up on such witnesses, see whether they were paid, of questionable character, etc., but it seems pretty solid to me. Also, it's good to check the author and make sure he didn't just lie; Oliver Stone's JFK is a good example of why you shouldn't trust things up-front.) So, at the least the Israelis were overzealous, and at worst, they sunk a U.S. ship purposely. Ok. But why? The reason was pretty clear regarding that hotel, but why would they attack the ship? There is no evident reason, and so, I can't regard it as anytihng more than a supicious screw-up. Should anyone bring a good reason to light, though, that opinion may change. :)

The Israelis were convinced that the US ship was going to give the Egyptians Tank positions. She had an intelligence gathering role being crammed full of electronic equipment and had cost $40 million to fit out.

Was Israel up to something that they did not want the United States to know? We now know that mass graves were later found in the Sinai in about 1995, were Jewish forces liquidating Egyptians there at the time? Both CNN and Time Magazine have reported on this discovery.
The Liberty was positioned just off the coast from the town of El Arish. In fact, Ennes and others had used town's mosque tower to fix the location of the ship along the otherwise featureless desert shoreline. The Israelis had seized El Arish and had used the airport there as a prisoner of war camp. On the very day the Liberty was attacked, the IDF was in the process of executing as many as 1,000 Palestinian and Egyptian POWs, a war crime that they surely wanted to conceal from prying eyes. According to Gabriel Bron, now an Israeli reporter, who witnessed part of the massacre as a soldier: "The Egyptian prisoners of war were ordered to dig pits and then army police shot them to death."

Damn. Israel is one midevil sumbitch. Right-o, deliberate attack it is.

The Bush Administration’s claims that foreign fighters are in Iraq is, seemingly, true.146,0000 are American :P