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darknation

Holy War!

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Grimm said:

It's much more fun to live believeing you'll be ressurected than it is to live thinking that when you die, you die.

Really? Didn't know that.

If you really and unconditionally think so, read stuff by hardcore existentialists like Camus. There's a LOT to say against that belief.

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Religion boils down to sin, and sin is nothing but a method of control. . . blah blah . . . In short, your religion and God are utterly neutered, spent, worthless. And that is why I laugh at you.


I really don't know what the fuck you're talking about, or what the point of that post was. At first it seems like you're coming down of religion for between too "restricitve", but then you're like, "Oh, those guys that crucify themselves, they're the shit, and you guys are just pussies." What the Hell? And by the way, religion is not about sin. At least not the one I practice. Granted, perhaps it used to be about sin, but it ain't anymore. Not all. If you ever spent any time in a Church other than perhaps the hard-ass ones you live near (assuming you do live near those types of Churches), you'd that your statement is false. Stop talking out yer ass.

Actually, I wasn't talking about you Cyb. Also, I still don't understand why things like, "Do animals have souls?" messe with you. You don't have to follow teachings of teh Church word for word. You can disagree. The answers to every question aren't gonna be in the Bible, or answered by the Church. The reason there's nothing in the Bible about animals is probably because no one really cared about animals the way we do today. If Jesus had gone around preaching about animals, well, heh, that wouldn't have worked. You can't let little things get you down. Find your own answeres to those small questions.

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Two things:

Everyone has intelligently given their opinions on this highly debatable topic. Its been thoroughly interesting to read and guage what you people tend to think about religion and God's existance. I have one question though...

What will become of those people who have sinned in this world as opposed to the ones who did righteous deeds? Isn't there any accountability? Would you live in world where rape, murder and exploitation are condoned and good people are suffering? Doesn't that concept of blatant unjust strike you as chilling? Are you people living empty lives in this belief that people will go unaccounted for? I cannot possibly even for a second believe that these people will go scot free, they will reap what they sow in the Hereafter.

As far as the universe is concerned, isn't it simply amazing how uniquely the stars orbit, and the planets orbit as well? Its as if they are following a set plan. Do you people honestly believe it is by chance? That even the smallest minute mathematical number allows these celestial bodies to behave the way they do. The very way the Earth was formed was the precise percentage of hydrogen and oxygen to fuse together to create a whole planet. The PRECISE amount. I'm not sure what it is, I don't ahve time to pull a number, perhaps someone in the forum would be kind to do so. But can anyone explain how perfect the system is? Who did this? By chance? Even to the last zillionths of a number?

I've met a lot of Christains who question their faith, more than Jews and Muslims. I am a muslim myself, and nothing to me is more spiritually and emotionally sublime then prostrating in front of God and with the most humility and respect submitting to His will. I find the most amazing satisfaction out of doing that, and call me what you will but that is my only exit out of this unfair, fucked up place where imperfections reign. I find so much peace within myself, so many doubts and worries calmed by just a simplistic action, I find that extremely invigorating. I'd advice all you people who question your faith, to at least explore other religions. I'd like to advice you to pick up the Quran and view it as objectively and openly as possible, without the apparent biases that are prevalent in society today. You go to a Mosque and see the peace that comes with praying side by side with people and you will know what I am talking about. Experience itself speaks louder than mere conjecture and theory.

Secondly, we have had many religious discussions in the past, and if anyone has learned from it, you'll know how useless and demoralising it is. What is the point of this discussion?

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doomedout said:

What is the point of this discussion?

Look who started it.

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doomedout said:
What will become of those people who have sinned in this world as opposed to the ones who did righteous deeds? Isn't there any accountability? Would you live in world where rape, murder and exploitation are condoned and good people are suffering? Doesn't that concept of blatant unjust strike you as chilling? Are you people living empty lives in this belief that people will go unaccounted for? I cannot possibly even for a second believe that these people will go scot free, they will reap what they sow in the Hereafter.

So, because you want certain people punished because you feel they did wrong a supreme being has to exist to eventually bring them down? Are you entirely sure who the sinners are and if you are free of such sins enough to avoid damnation yourself?

Anyway, to a degree we certainly do practice some sort of justice among each other here on Earth, don't we? Ugly crap certainly does happen, but don't some people manage to get along pretty well as well?

I mean, yeah, I guess you can believe in a God in Heaven that'll administer perfect justice when our days are over here on Earth, but I'm still not very sure how your argumentation has anything to do with that belief.

As far as the universe is concerned, isn't it simply amazing how uniquely the stars orbit, and the planets orbit as well?

Indeed it's wonderful.

Its as if they are following a set plan. Do you people honestly believe it is by chance? That even the smallest minute mathematical number allows these celestial bodies to behave the way they do. The very way the Earth was formed was the precise percentage of hydrogen and oxygen to fuse together to create a whole planet. The PRECISE amount. I'm not sure what it is, I don't ahve time to pull a number, perhaps someone in the forum would be kind to do so. But can anyone explain how perfect the system is? Who did this? By chance? Even to the last zillionths of a number?

Would you be capable of explaining what "chance" is aside from opposing it to some sort of sentient supreme being meddling with things? What is chance? Why not just consider that the combined and extended functioning of existence and the universe exceeds our understanding and our perceptive capacity? I think we agree on these limitations humanity has, but why draw conclusions about Lords beyond managing things just because it exceeds our comprehension, even after hundreds of years of diligent speculation, study and tools development? Isn't it a bit pretentious to believe that we know the answers? If there were a God exemplifying excellence, enlighentment and wisdom I'd tend to think the first things he would look down upon are easy answers and the belief that we know God or ourselves.

I find the most amazing satisfaction out of doing that, and call me what you will but that is my only exit out of this unfair, fucked up place where imperfections reign. I find so much peace within myself, so many doubts and worries calmed by just a simplistic action, I find that extremely invigorating.

That's cool, and I gather maybe you saw above where I noted I understood the functional place of religion institutions in human existence; yet, does this activity have anything to do with God, or whatever you believe God is? What if mayhap I have similar experiences, to a degree, be it equal, lesser, or greater, without belief in any sort of God? Let's say, just being alone, meditating, or with people I trust, or at parties, or at work, or whatever?

Experience itself speaks louder than mere conjecture and theory.

I'll borrow this phrase you used to defend yourself with not unjustly for my own purposes since it serves me well: We're all quite limited in our understanding, right? So, invariably, no matter how hard we try to discern things and understand, we kind of let ourselves go and take many things for granted, we believe or consider things that could easily be questioned if we put attention to it. We can't be considering every question and every doubt now, can we? That's understandable, we aren't god-like; we're animals stuck on this lonely planet by ourselves, who need to eat, bathe, and all sorts of shit to get going through life. We're pretty limited, our knowledge, especially from an individual perspective, is pretty limited (even geniuses manage olny a limited amount of info and have a limited spectrum where they excel.) So then, how can we believe that the things that we believe are unquestionalbe or even anywhere near true, especially on a large scale that exceeds us in such an immense way?

Secondly, we have had many religious discussions in the past, and if anyone has learned from it, you'll know how useless and demoralising it is. What is the point of this discussion?


I'll quote you for an answer here:

Everyone has intelligently given their opinions on this highly debatable topic. Its been thoroughly interesting to read and guage what you people tend to think about religion and God's existance.

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fraggle said:

fnord

For She's a jolly good goddess,
For She's a jolly good goddess,
For She's a jolly good goddess,
Which nobody can deny!

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darknation said:

On another subject, look up the Knights Templar, the Holy Grail, the Merovingians. Very interesting, and makes me finally appreciate Julian's ex-nickname. Very clever, sir. Sly wit salutes you!

I'm going to have to read up on that more, find some texts on it. I mean, besides the rotten.com libraries. :P

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doomedout said:

What will become of those people who have sinned in this world as opposed to the ones who did righteous deeds? Isn't there any accountability? Would you live in world where rape, murder and exploitation are condoned and good people are suffering? Doesn't that concept of blatant unjust strike you as chilling? Are you people living empty lives in this belief that people will go unaccounted for? I cannot possibly even for a second believe that these people will go scot free, they will reap what they sow in the Hereafter.


You've done nothing but prove my point, you NEED god and the afterlife to better cope with these facts that life is indeed unfair and that many people are scum. You find comfort in the thought that, when rapists, muderers and so on die, they will be sent to some place of eternal damnation. That's fine, but I believe the raw truth is that when these people die, they're dead and that's it. Gone. Just like you, just like me, just like everyone. Obviously it's not the preferable scenario (indeed everyone would like to see good triumph over evil) nor is it very appealing, thus you create something that makes life more meaningful. That's up to you though.

doomedout said:

As far as the universe is concerned, isn't it simply amazing how uniquely the stars orbit, and the planets orbit as well? Its as if they are following a set plan. Do you people honestly believe it is by chance? That even the smallest minute mathematical number allows these celestial bodies to behave the way they do. The very way the Earth was formed was the precise percentage of hydrogen and oxygen to fuse together to create a whole planet. The PRECISE amount. I'm not sure what it is, I don't ahve time to pull a number, perhaps someone in the forum would be kind to do so. But can anyone explain how perfect the system is? Who did this? By chance? Even to the last zillionths of a number?


Yes, chance. The universe is infinite (as far anybody knows), which is very big, so it pretty much HAS to occur somewhere. Even if the chances are 1 in a trillion or something immense (or more immense) like that, relative to infinity a trillion is still finite and you're pretyt much gaurenteed it will occur. So, we're a tiny spec in the universe, insignifigant really. As you've shown, coping with something like that, or with the fact that we are indeed here for no reason, because of a chance, isn't the greatest thing to think about. It's human nature really. But if god created all this, well then there's a reason for it. It's nicer that way.

doomedout said:

I've met a lot of Christains who question their faith, more than Jews and Muslims. I am a muslim myself, and nothing to me is more spiritually and emotionally sublime then prostrating in front of God and with the most humility and respect submitting to His will. I find the most amazing satisfaction out of doing that, and call me what you will but that is my only exit out of this unfair, fucked up place where imperfections reign. I find so much peace within myself, so many doubts and worries calmed by just a simplistic action, I find that extremely invigorating. I'd advice all you people who question your faith, to at least explore other religions. I'd like to advice you to pick up the Quran and view it as objectively and openly as possible, without the apparent biases that are prevalent in society today. You go to a Mosque and see the peace that comes with praying side by side with people and you will know what I am talking about. Experience itself speaks louder than mere conjecture and theory.


That's excellent, as I said, I don't believe having faith is a bad thing, I still have reserves about organized religion, but the way it can unite people (sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse) is indeed a powerful thing. It's not for everyone though.

doomedout said:

Secondly, we have had many religious discussions in the past, and if anyone has learned from it, you'll know how useless and demoralising it is. What is the point of this discussion?


I apologise if I've been demoralizing, I've tried not to come off as such, I'm simply stating what I believe. Just as you see your beliefs as the truth, just as much as you believe in your god and your religion and have faith, is how I feel about this.

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Pardon my interruption, but while this fits nicely in the EE forum, this almost underscores the need for a "Philosophy and Debates" forum.

FIN

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doomedout said:

As far as the universe is concerned, isn't it simply amazing [...]

The Anthropic Principle.

You lose.

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im lost >.<
so is this still on howabout the universe(s) was started?

Anyway...what is "The Anthropic Principle"? Is there a online documentation on it? :P

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myk said:

So, because you want certain people punished because you feel they did wrong a supreme being has to exist to eventually bring them down?


Who else would?

myk said:

Are you entirely sure who the sinners are and if you are free of such sins enough to avoid damnation yourself?


I'm not entirely sure who the sinners actually are, but I do know that in according to our religion, avoiding sin is not enough to avoid damnation, other things must be done.

myk said:

Anyway, to a degree we certainly do practice some sort of justice among each other here on Earth, don't we? Ugly crap certainly does happen, but don't some people manage to get along pretty well as well?


That isn't the issue. The issue is far too many people don't.

myk said:

I mean, yeah, I guess you can believe in a God in Heaven that'll administer perfect justice when our days are over here on Earth, but I'm still not very sure how your argumentation has anything to do with that belief.


Let me reiterate so I don't cause anymore confusion. You do agree to the fact that there is a lot of evil that is lurking in our world that goes unchallenged and unanswered. I cannot allow myself to believe that the atrocities that have been commited by man will go unanswered, and there must be divine justice to those who needlessly lost lives and had their lives fall before them. Suppose someone blindly shoots a baby out of pure hate or whatever motivation and he manages to go unscathed. Where is the justice? Will you get buried next to the same man who did this knowing he has the same fate as you? Think about it.

myk said:

Would you be capable of explaining what "chance" is aside from opposing it to some sort of sentient supreme being meddling with things? What is chance? Why not just consider that the combined and extended functioning of existence and the universe exceeds our understanding and our perceptive capacity? I think we agree on these limitations humanity has, but why draw conclusions about Lords beyond managing things just because it exceeds our comprehension, even after hundreds of years of diligent speculation, study and tools development? Isn't it a bit pretentious to believe that we know the answers? If there were a God exemplifying excellence, enlighentment and wisdom I'd tend to think the first things he would look down upon are easy answers and the belief that we know God or ourselves.


Well pretentious to a person who questions this. Yes. It is. To me? No.

myk said:

That's cool, and I gather maybe you saw above where I noted I understood the functional place of religion institutions in human existence; yet, does this activity have anything to do with God, or whatever you believe God is? What if mayhap I have similar experiences, to a degree, be it equal, lesser, or greater, without belief in any sort of God? Let's say, just being alone, meditating, or with people I trust, or at parties, or at work, or whatever?


Hey I wasn't implying that everyone should feel this way only through submission. It was purely subjective! I was only speaking for myself, not for you or anyone else in this room. I just think it would be extremely incredible to see more people in this world connect to God in that fashion.

myk said:

So then, how can we believe that the things that we believe are unquestionalbe or even anywhere near true, especially on a large scale that exceeds us in such an immense way?


Faith. Its a dying breed.

Thanks for your nice response, I really enjoyed hearing your thoughts on this.

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I don't really believe in justice being meted out. I see very little of it dispensed correctly in life and although it's a horrible idea, (as cyb pointed out) I don't necessarily see it ever dispensed in death either.

I do admire faith though. Western is a culture built around immediate tangibility - "if you can't see it then it isn't there" - and to believe in something which has no hard evidence of it's existence is, in a way, an admirable quality. However, I side with cyb in this partially being borne out of an inability to mentally cope with the loose ends, unsatisfactory answers, visceral cruelty and acute injustices which are resident in the world as we know it. To look at life with none of the edges taken off (which, most of us here having slithered out of a vagina located further away from ethnic cleansing, famine and potentially lethal drinking water than TV, sanitation and habitable conditions will never have to fully experience) is a difficult and disillusioning (ary?) thing. It runs against hope, which is what makes living seem a worthwile endeavour.

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Last night as I was taking my friend Kyle home, we had a small discussion on religion. It's quite interesting to note that the debate on religion vs. no religion (or God vs. no God) is entirely based on egos. Since one side doesn't want to loose, thereby hurting their ego, they're constantly debating. It's all just a big ego battle. Take away the egos, set them aside, and progress could really be made.

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Zell said:

what is "The Anthropic Principle"? Is there a online documentation on it? :P

[google]Zell[/google]

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why do i always get the hell confused out of me when i see my name :P (kyle)

anyway, me and freind john had this same argument at lunch. Here is my veiws and his veiws:

[Zell] Hey john, you think god exists? I mean shit happens to good people. People die and bad times. People are born retarded or deformed.
[John] Well, those are gods punishments.
[Zell] But, think about it. A 25 year old guy. He didnt "sin" once, and He dies in a car crash. What the hell is that for? Anyway, what is classhifyed as a "sin"? Its ever changing.
[John] Ok, first, maybe his parents commited a sin. Number 2, a sin is something against gods will.
[Zell] Whats god will? If its in the bible, a lot of the shit today is a sin. Vanity...etc.
[John] I hate you. Anyway, gods will is ever changing, becuase he watches us all.
[Zell] Ok, another question. If he watches us all, why doesn't he strike down people like Osama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussien, Hitler, etc as soon as he finds them sinning? I mean, if god really is there, he could be doing a lot of shit to help everydboy out.
[John] .....


Instresting huh? Anyway..this again rises another question: Is there a heaven or hell? Or do we just die, blank out, never exist again. Or do we reincarnate? Its all a big mystery...

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TeamKill said:

Last night as I was taking my friend Kyle home, we had a small discussion on religion. It's quite interesting to note that the debate on religion vs. no religion (or God vs. no God) is entirely based on egos. Since one side doesn't want to loose, thereby hurting their ego, they're constantly debating. It's all just a big ego battle. Take away the egos, set them aside, and progress could really be made.



To a point, I agree. Mainly in arguments about other topics though. Generally, there is a few themes which people have really strong convictions about. The two which come to mind most immediately are drugs and religion. I've never seen any other topics cause as much inflammation as these two. The part which I agree with you about though is that generally your views on either of these stem from experience and the conviction that your way is the right way, which, as you said, is egocentric.

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Heh, that John kid has the same beliefs as Old Testament Jews. That ain't good. (The beliefs aren't good, not that he thinks like a Jew. Hopefully you follow me.) Anyway, on what Myk said about how pretenious we are to believe that we are right, well you are right, kinda. The difference is that God revealed himself to us. He told us that he was the Creator. I believe that the Yahweh/God/Allah "diety" is the only one to directly contact people, but I could be wrong. Of course, you probably think that's bullshit, but whatever. Also, Cyb, you were about the only who wasn't demoralizing, so don't sweat it. :P Though that one arguement did mess me up for a bit. Finally, doomedout, are all mosques segregated, or is that just in the Midlle East? And I definately agree with you. The feeling you get in a place of worship, be it a Church, Mosque, Temple, or whatever, is like none other.

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Cyb said:
Yes, chance. The universe is infinite (as far anybody knows), which is very big, so it pretty much HAS to occur somewhere. Even if the chances are 1 in a trillion or something immense (or more immense) like that, relative to infinity a trillion is still finite and you're pretyt much gaurenteed it will occur. So, we're a tiny spec in the universe, insignifigant really.


Well, what has to occur? Life? Life just is; and thus, to put it one way, is inevitable because it's happening. "Chance" in any case is either total chaos, merely an opposition to an intentional, supreme law or guidance (I gather this is the first thing many theists would consider), or a scientific measuring of the possibility of something occuring under a certain circumstance.

In any case, it's these (relatively?) specific "material" circumstances that result in what we call life, the chances just being our capacity to predict them or otherwise suppose they happened in the past. Theories maybe do, based on current knowledge we have gathered through our tools of diligent study of the complex and changing universe, give chances that life or something similar may be happening on other planets or whatever; which is speculation based on what we know (maybe not too much.)

I mean, it's known the chance to roll snake eyes is one in thirty-six, but this is meaningless in relation to a definite, specific roll and is just an estimation for our convenience. The specific roll of the dice will have a result determined by the unique physical circumstances of the roll.

If I had to say how I see it, it's all and infernally complex or huge interrelation of space matter/energy, but it isn't chance except in our eyes because we have to predict stuff, as, to put it literally, we know not where the Aleph lies.

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myk said:

I mean, it's known the chance to roll snake eyes is one in thirty-six, but this is meaningless in relation to a definite, specific roll and is just an estimation for our convenience. The specific roll of the dice will have a result determined by the unique physical circumstances of the roll.

Check out the 'Gambler's Ruin' phenomenom. You'll probably find it associated with chaos theory or some shit.

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Here's a quick though: why is god a 'he'? If god is perfection, and the very basis of gender is duality, then wouldn't god be at 'it'? To say the 'he'/'she'/'it' is of any gender is to say that it is less than perfect, at least as I see it.

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EllipsusD said:

Here's a quick though: why is god a 'he'? If god is perfection, and the very basis of gender is duality, then wouldn't god be at 'it'? To say the 'he'/'she'/'it' is of any gender is to say that it is less than perfect, at least as I see it.


Hehe, deeply religious (as in "REPENT OR GO TO HELL EVIL SINNER, I AM MORALLY SUPERIOR TO YOU IN EVERYWAY SO I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!) people give me the evil eye when I ask why, if God in their text is perfect, why did he create an imperfect world ;)

Or usually it goes like:

"Satan made the world imperfect, not God"
"But there was nothing before God according to the Bible. Therefore God created Satan, so why would he do that if he's a) so loving and b) perfect?"

PAUSE

"I don't have all the answers"
"Then why did you bother trying to answer me in the first place?"

/sound of anti-heathen torch being lit

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God did not "create" Satan; Satan is the new name of the former angel Lucifer, who tried to be more powerful than God, if you believe that sort of garbage...

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darknation said:

Check out the 'Gambler's Ruin' phenomenom. You'll probably find it associated with chaos theory or some shit.

Perhaps you're thinking of something else. Gambler's Ruin is just a concept in basic Probability Theory. The idea is that a gambler will always (i.e. with probability = 1) lose out in the end if he is up against an "infinitely" rich bank.

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