Maes Posted December 8, 2010 Quast said:Funnily enough, that right there is actually probably the real reason. Not entirely to exclude, since the British were just beginning to build their vast colonial emprire at the time and thought of (Indian) Indians, Africans, Chinese etc. as nothing more than subhumans to put to work in plantations (not only the British, any major European colonial power at the time). The US, just like Australia later on, had the peculiarity of being essentially unpopulated and thus marked for population by ethnic Anglosaxons, rather than overthrowing a previous status quo/organized state. Needless to say, Native American and Aborigines weren't considered a state entity, just "savages" (well...neither were the Incas but that's another story). 0 Share this post Link to post
Qaatar Posted December 8, 2010 Maes said:Chinese etc. Not sure if that's entirely true. The Qing Dynasty during the mid-18th century under Qianlong had not yet begun total decline, and while the long-standing hubris of the Chinese and the extremely inimical isolationist thinking never allowed outside influence to flourish (such as the scientific method), the disparity in power between Britain and China at the time was not great. Fast forward one century into the Opium War, and it becomes a totally different scenario. However, 100 years worth technological advancement versus rampant stagnation and corruption would turn the tables between any two powers. Therefore, from most of the literature that I've read, the European powers at the time did not regard China and its inhabitants as sub-human. Only a century later, after witnessing and successfully predicting the non-sustainability of the Chinese model, did they begin rapid encroachment and military aggression. 0 Share this post Link to post
Quasar Posted December 8, 2010 Qaatar said:...rampant stagnation and corruption... Reminds me of some other country... 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted December 10, 2010 kb1 said: Not sure how I did that, With pretentiousness, arrogance and zealotry, as your words showed. You called many others ignorant, presumed to be closer to the truth and demanded of them faith in your views rather than their own. Come on, man, information is not "free" or "oppressed", it has no will of it's own. You're confusing the issue. Terms have many acceptations according to their use. Information is free when it is accessible. Access to information is a freedom individuals enjoy, because, having access to information, they are empowered by it. Those without access to information are ignorant and relatively powerless to face any manipulations by those who hold more information. And, "freedom" does not mean "free to do whatever the hell you want to do, to whoever you want, trampling on their freedoms in the process." Justice is a necessary evil, because a lot people don't act right, period. (Not necessarily pertaining to Wikileaks, just in general). Indeed, that does not apply to Wikileaks anywhere near as much as it does to what Wikileaks is combating, if at all. Wikileaks releases, reveals or frees information so that governments and other powerful entities such as corporations and organizations may not use it as an advantage in order to have the freedom to abuse and deceive others as they have done repeatedly. 0 Share this post Link to post
Mr. Freeze Posted December 10, 2010 myk said:Indeed, that does not apply to Wikileaks anywhere near as much as it does to what Wikileaks is combating, if at all. Wikileaks releases, reveals or frees information so that governments and other powerful entities such as corporations and organizations may not use it as an advantage in order to have the freedom to abuse and deceive others as they have done repeatedly. The lesser of two evils is still evil. 0 Share this post Link to post
GreyGhost Posted December 11, 2010 Though sometimes it's a necessary evil. 0 Share this post Link to post
Mr. Freeze Posted December 11, 2010 GreyGhost said:Though sometimes it's a necessary evil. That depends on whether we're talking about the "Insurance File" or not. If not, that can be argued. If so, not ever. We don't live in the world of Deus Ex. Throwing that shit into the fan is going to fuck things up further, not solve the world's problems. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted December 11, 2010 This is exactly the kind of complacent attitude that creates stagnation and allows problematic, bloated systems to go on. I already mentioned how there are people who actually thrive in such situations, so that explains a lot. However there's no such thing as 100% consensus and complacency: by that reasoning, the American colonists should just stay put and not rebel against the British Empire because, after all, it would just make them angry and throw more shit into the fan (which it did). And I'm sure a couple of your fellow countrymen from 200 years ago actually come off worse than before, after your liberation. Or after the civil war. Or you just might have ended up like Canada ;-) However sometimes to make an omelette you have to break your eggs. History is full of such mountain-moving events. It's never easy, it's never pleasant, but they can't be held back for too long. 0 Share this post Link to post
darknation Posted December 11, 2010 the man is the new patron saint of trolls. Simple. also, rape. 0 Share this post Link to post
pritch Posted December 12, 2010 I really don't understand what people think will change or be made better in the world by wikileaks. If there's one thing we have surely learned over the centuries, it's that if you upset or even dislocate one set of assholes, another set of assholes soon takes its place. Has there been one honest-to-god surprise in all of this? Did anyone here not know that Prince Andrew was a twat before all this? What's going to ultimately be changed by any of this, other than causing fuck-ups and embarrassment in the here and now? Please don't tell me that wikileaks is eventually going to result in people leaping through green fields making posies and swapping nosegays because it fucking won't. Plus it is led by a dubious egoist who certainly looks like he might be a fan of surprise sex. And I don't necessarily buy that everyone is out to get him when there are so many to take his place. I mean how horrible would it be if this guy actually is a molester but gets off with it because of all this furore over wikileaks? That would be as bad as any of the shit they've sought to indict. 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted December 12, 2010 pritch said: If there's one thing we have surely learned over the centuries, it's that if you upset or even dislocate one set of assholes, another set of assholes soon takes its place. Has there been one honest-to-god surprise in all of this? Did anyone here not know that Prince Andrew was a twat before all this? We learned something else too: Assholes need time to become so and tend to gradually accumulate that character by hoarding power and wealth. So yeah, it's about time to shuffle the cards a bit and leave things in a less unbalanced state. New developments could indeed lead to a new reigning asshole, but that's something to leave for future action, rather than stalling any action now. There is no paradise in the future, but there is a need for a relatively constant lookout so that equality or justice doesn't get out of hand, and that is done by a plurality or parties insisting on their interests, rather than one imparting the rules. This happened due to how things work. Wikileaks is just a venue, but many people have been clamoring to find ways to blow whistles for quite some time now. You can't reasonably disarticulate the responsibility the assholes themselves have in creating the demand for their betrayal. The Wikileaks data doesn't change things that much in the sense that it's just intelligence data from a certain perspective which can still be interpreted in many ways and used by different parties, but at least it adds to how many can use it. 0 Share this post Link to post
GreyGhost Posted December 12, 2010 pritch said:Did anyone here not know that Prince Andrew was a twat before all this? Meh - so far there's been no big surprises amongst the leaks picked up by the mass media, apart from a few eyebrow raising comments they've been either common knowledge, widely speculated and/or common sense. So apart from the embarrassment of having correspondence placed in the public domain earlier than anticipated I've yet to see something worth getting fussed over. 0 Share this post Link to post
D_GARG Posted December 13, 2010 Technician said:I think this time you take the law into your own hands, track this man down and then kill him. After all, the system will fail to cater to your judicial views. I wouldnt, I would give him the Nobel Prize Of PEACE! Because secrets just causes problems. few causes problems for many as usual. think of how companies who kill their employees for money in the US, And Have The frigin' Freedom For It, SRSLY WTF?!?! unfair, isnt it? even if wikileaks would let out some info thats actually causing global damages by informing powerfull, bad organisations stuff then wikileaks would leak them aswell OR, someting else than wikileaks starts to leak, and then eveyone is leaking in crossfire WOHO! example (on topic) wikileaks released info, about that in sweden the goverment let the US have personell overwatch. my reaction to that was. 1, that goverment sux, and are affraid of the us, and the US wants power by some sort. 2, sweden, along many european countries, are wanna be US too much. 3, what the fuck is wrong with all of this? 0 Share this post Link to post
D_GARG Posted December 13, 2010 Danarchy said:The people at Wikileaks are true heroes. YES Gentlemen. they pull off the trousers from the IRL cheaters/hackers for great justice 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted December 13, 2010 D_GARG said:I wouldnt, I would give him the Nobel Prize Of PEACE! That, I'd agree with. It would piss off all these Constitution-trampling politics who seem to have forgotten many of the basic rules of every representative democracy out there. 0 Share this post Link to post
John Smith Posted December 13, 2010 Nobody deserves an award here for leaking information, on the other hand, nobody deserves any special punishment. We haven't seen any Top Secret clearance documents at all, and a (relatively) small amount of Secret documents. Mostly what we've seen, especially this go around, are documents that are classified because, well, they're potentially embarrassing. It's "intelligence" of the sort you expect a diplomat to collect, mostly political gossip. Nothing earth-shattering is really to be found. I think, overall, everyone is making a lot bigger deal about this than it is. When we start seeing documents that are TS, or docs that have big warnings about need-to-know, it'll be time to have a big reaction one way or another. Right now, I have to say SNL pegged wikileaks quite well, it's a TMZ show for the government. 0 Share this post Link to post
D_GARG Posted December 13, 2010 If they even would leak out top secret stuff from the US goverment, then the US would probably send an assault force were ever they target if they dont send FBI, in that case FBI are kind and helpful compared to the other mentioned option. 0 Share this post Link to post
Sharessa Posted December 13, 2010 Top secret stuff is usually worth keeping secret, and the people that get to see it are usually the most trustworthy people they can find, so we probably won't see any of that. 0 Share this post Link to post
D_GARG Posted December 13, 2010 Danarchy said:Top secret stuff is usually worth keeping secret, and the people that get to see it are usually the most trustworthy people they can find, so we probably won't see any of that. well, there are different types of information and all we have any use of to know is the information about companies/goverments/organizations with unwashed hands and dirty palms 0 Share this post Link to post
Wagi Posted December 13, 2010 Really, nothing suprising here. A country gets a bunch of its secrets released and the Conservatives of said country call for the execution of somebody they have absolutely no jurisdiction over. Once the leaks happened I could pretty much guess what happens next. It's not like we didn't know people wanted this information. The only thing suprising here is that Julian Assange can still walk, seeing how his huge testicles keep his feet from touching the ground. 0 Share this post Link to post
kb1 Posted December 14, 2010 myk said:With pretentiousness, arrogance and zealotry, as your words showed. Is it not arrogant to call someone arrogant? Jeez... myk said:You called many others ignorant, presumed to be closer to the truth and demanded of them faith in your views rather than their own. I never call anyone ignorant, and, yes, I do presume that I'm closer to the truth than those that are not - heh. I don't demand faith, just that people are specific about what they are shitting on. I'm American, and proud of it, and don't appreciate "America sucks" comments, because it doesn't. Now, governments always suck, I'll give you that. But, the ideas are good. The foundation, the beliefs - are good. The execution leaves something to be desired. myk said:Terms have many acceptations according to their use. Information is free when it is accessible. Access to information is a freedom individuals enjoy, because, having access to information, they are empowered by it. Those without access to information are ignorant and relatively powerless to face any manipulations by those who hold more information.Makes sense. I would say "Access to information is a freedom FREE individuals enjoy." 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted December 14, 2010 kb1 said: I never call anyone ignorant, and, yes, I do presume that I'm closer to the truth than those that are not - heh. "I don't. Oh wait, I do. Heh." Indeed, that presumption is arrogance. I don't demand faith, You're doing it by generalizing about the opposition, reducing them to misled rabble in your mind, assuming you hold the truth or are closer to the truth and that others should open their eyes or see with what you think is "in their heart"; something evidently much closer to unconditional love for the USA. I'm more or less paraphrasing your previous post here. just that people are specific about what they are shitting on. Then don't dwell so much on generalizations. 0 Share this post Link to post
kb1 Posted December 14, 2010 myk said:You're doing it by generalizing about the opposition, reducing them to misled rabble in your mind, assuming you hold the truth or are closer to the truth and that others should open their eyes or see with what you think is "in their heart"; something evidently much closer to unconditional love for the USA. I'm more or less paraphrasing your previous post here.It's love for the ideals. It's the belief that freedom should be supported - that people should direct their energy towards supporting people to defend their rights, vs. picking apart specifics. The "opposition" are people that direct energy toward what I call "evil". Many people (especially the young) don't think it through, and see the labels that others toss out casually as absolute and all-encompassing. The youth is not ignorant, but they don't have the life experience to tell the difference, which is how they get "misled". Am I closer to the truth? I know some Americans that I highly respect, with strong values and beliefs that are aligned with freedom and justice - American values. So, yes, I *know* these things I say are true, so I point them out. It's not arrogance, stubbornness maybe. It's just the way it is. I defend because that's me doing my part to support those beliefs. However, I am open to the possibility that I'm wrong. Are you? 0 Share this post Link to post
Quast Posted December 15, 2010 kb1 said:with strong values and beliefs that are aligned with freedom and justice - American values. Pointless platitudes with little to no meaning. 0 Share this post Link to post
Csonicgo Posted December 15, 2010 Quast said:Pointless platitudes with little to no meaning. You know I'm so sick of hearing "American Values", it's a meme the right-wing uses to do whatever the fuck they want, including being the biggest hypocrites in getting the government involved in a woman's choices, who can build what worship center where, it's all bullshit. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted December 15, 2010 Am I the only one hearing the Star-Sprangled Banner (and some Freedom Stepping -a more Freedom version of Goose Stepping) whenever kb1 posts something here? I think that the so-called "defense of Freedom values" that many seem to hold so dear only refers to "freedom" intended as commercial/enterprisey "laissez-faire" liberalism (at which indeed the US is easily #1 in the world), not so much to the civil liberties of the US citizens themselves (in the US you can get easily jailed and/or iced by a cop for stuff that in the EU and elsewhere would be misdemeanors, at best). Also, it only often refers to the aforementioned values when applied inside US territory, not the right to freedom, independence and liberty of non-US citizens (as evidenced by the US foreign policy). It's a bit like the Albanians' sense of personal honour and pride called "Besa" : they DO value and respect it, but only between their own people. They feel no need to behave with "Besa" towards non-Albanians, and even among them they use it to justify long-lasting feuds or questionable acts -so not even everybody's "Besa" is equal. 0 Share this post Link to post
D_GARG Posted December 15, 2010 Csonicgo said:You know I'm so sick of hearing "American Values", it's a meme the right-wing uses to do whatever the fuck they want, including being the biggest hypocrites in getting the government involved in a woman's choices, who can build what worship center where, it's all bullshit. I agree, just beacuse a person is american they dont have the right in Any way to do whatever they want were ever they want even in their own country, the boundaries thats in the content of being a good human is what we hear they wanna push, especially if they're rich, any type of wealth does not give you any right to act like an asshole and defend ourself by saying "Im American (or what ever current person is) and I have my rights as an american/in America I can bla bla bla" FUCK YOU its common sense that you dont behave like a dick, I can be a Swahili but I dont have the rights to be an asshole against you even if youre in my own damn country.. This American always No1, freedom and world-cop talking is just bullshit, Kina can buy/sink the US within a week anyway. time to wake up from the 1900's? sometimes I wonder how many Americans there are out there that actually belives the bullshit that Non-Americans (along with americans) hear from media .. that they're so great and superior, you know I think that the goverment let this shit go loud because it dumds their population for the benefit of powerfull men. 0 Share this post Link to post
Quasar Posted December 15, 2010 Maes said:I think that the so-called "defense of Freedom values" that many seem to hold so dear only refers to "freedom" intended as commercial/enterprisey "laissez-faire" liberalism (at which indeed the US is easily #1 in the world), not so much to the civil liberties of the US citizens themselves (in the US you can get easily jailed and/or iced by a cop for stuff that in the EU and elsewhere would be misdemeanors, at best). This tension between true freedom and what is more properly called liberty (ie., property rights) and the people most interested in one or the other goes all the way back to the American Revolution, and in particular, to the framing of the Constitution. While some of the "Founding Fathers" were Populists (like James Madison and Thomas Jefferson) and championed individual rights, others, particularly the ones with a lot of property and money, feared the masses and preferred a government designed to protect their own interests above all else. It's been a long torturous road since then, and it's not hard to tell which one has won out in the long run. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted December 15, 2010 Well said. The values that kb1 refers to are those of liberty intended as liberty of property/enterprise/work etc. which were opposing their more stringent control in e.g. Communist countries (but they never spoke of e.g. ensuring more equality and liberties to the Kulak in Tzarist Russia, as long as something/someone wasn't Communist all the way or didn't use the work "socialism" in any way it was alright). But still trumping those values today is pointless: all Western countries, most Asian ones and even Arab ones have pretty much similar property and enterprise laws, and you need to be a specialized economist/attorney to be able to spot differences. Hell, even the worst of African shitholes have Western-like constitutions that defend free enterprise and property -at least on paper, enforcing anything in those shitholes is a whole other problem. Maybe only Cuba and NK are deliberately different, and I wouldn't bet on the former lasting much longer, either. 0 Share this post Link to post
kb1 Posted December 15, 2010 Csonicgo said:You know I'm so sick of hearing "American Values", it's a meme the right-wing uses to do whatever the fuck they want, including being the biggest hypocrites in getting the government involved in a woman's choices, who can build what worship center where, it's all bullshit. Anyone using the term in that manner is doing a disservice to what it actually stands for. And, being able to voice your dislike openly is definitely an "American value", in the true sense. However, I would suggest that your comment, taken out-of-context does an unnecessary disservice too. It appears that, it's not the phrase you dislike, but the politicians, and, yeah, there's a lot of bullshit there for sure. Maes said:Well said. The values that kb1 refers to are those of liberty intended as liberty of property/enterprise/work etc. which were opposing their more stringent control in e.g. Communist countries (but they never spoke of e.g. ensuring more equality and liberties to the Kulak in Tzarist Russia, as long as something/someone wasn't Communist all the way or didn't use the work "socialism" in any way it was alright). Yeah, that's part of it. And, then there's freedom to vote, to pray, to speak, to work, to crap on the sacrifices that allowed those freedoms to be enjoyed. Maes said:But still trumping those values today is pointless: all Western countries, most Asian ones and even Arab ones have pretty much similar property and enterprise laws, and you need to be a specialized economist/attorney to be able to spot differences. Exactly my point - this is due to spreading knowledge about and supporting these core values. Things were not always this way. America deserves a bit of credit here for the role it played in bringing forth the idea that these basic rights belong to ALL people. Look, I don't find myself delving too deep into politics, and I am in no way a strong supporter of the current policies of the elected few, that seem to screw things up at any given chance. But I will say this: There's an overwhelming majority of decent, hard-working, kind people in America (as there are in most all if not all countries), that DO in fact believe in the original founding fathers' vision of equality, freedom, liberty, and justice, and I'm one of them. Don't sell out a whole country of people with your words - direct those statements towards the guilty few that are currently in power. Don't allow your statements to discourage those that would help you defend your rights, because, those rights are not automatic. While trying to make change for the better, at least be a little thankful that things are as good as they are. 0 Share this post Link to post