Technician Posted October 14, 2011 Grain of Salt said:Or become terminally ill, permanently incapacitated, falsely imprisoned, or just fail to become financially solvent for any of a large number of reasons that would not actually be your fault. Just like anywhere else in the world. America isn't a fairy tale. You can't just pretend that everyone gets what they deserve. To be fair, it might be hard for Vordakk to relate to the common people, seeing as he's a platinum selling, chart-topping metal God. 0 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted October 14, 2011 There are a number of rags-to-riches stories about poor orphans and stuff working hard and becoming wealthy and successful. The fun thing about this literature is that every time the key event is when the young and destitute protagonist attracts, through sheer luck, the attention of some old rich guy who decides that he likes our hero's work ethic so much that he decides to become his protector and mentor. No rags to riches story ever published made the implicit claim that you could become a millionaire through your work alone, instead you have to maneuver into getting to share a millionaire's already-made wealth. Or in other words, and outside of the fairy-tales rules that this literature follows otherwise, you've gotta be a con artist or fuck your way to the top. You don't become a millionaire through hard work. You become one through inheritance, sheer luck, or crime. Hard work can help you climb the social ladder a bit, but don't expect to rise that many rungs. 0 Share this post Link to post
myk Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said: 90% of American media, including TV and printed news, is liberally biased. I regularly hear and see the Tea Party trash-talked by media outlets, while this "Occupy (insert name of city or trendy thing to hate here)" phenomenon has only been questioned by Fox News and certain people on conservative talk radio. Since you think they are "hippies" (that equals "leper" to right wing yuppies and their friends) "crusty kids" and "human garbage"... one doesn't need to wonder much what "questioning" them may mean. This "Occupy" thing is barely organized at all. Most meetings are held in some park, where attendees use a "people mic"(someone saying something and the crowd repeating it for the benefit of people futher away) because they're too cheap to go buy a bullhorn(saving those dollars up for a sixer of Pabst Blue Ribbon). The various groups cite different reasons for their angst and can't seem to come to a concensus on what they believe(big surprise). With that in mind, people with fascist leanings won't find them appealing because they don't give the impression of security, power and authority. Neither will elitists who hate popular democracy, as basically what they have is an open critical congress where people are encouraged to debate, express and share their discontent and experiences. a return to the first principles and the Constitution, less government intrusion in our lives, less burdensome regulation on businesses(which creates jobs), lower taxes, more freedom, stronger borders, and a national defense plan that adhere's to Reagan's "peace through strength" maxim. When you see that those ideas are promoted actively by very rich people and the owners of leading companies, the irony behind them starts to hurt. Sure, it would be cool to have a society made out of endless webs of smallish private businesses that happily work as "balanced" markets, but that's as idealistic as communism or anarchism just happening. Instead, through competition private business tends to consolidate poles of wealth and power that turn into hegemonies, and the economy and markets have few means to revert that. With that context, extreme laissez-faire ideas are used mainly to attack welfare spending, but not military spending, which big corporations support to expand their business into places otherwise under the governance of sovereign foreign states who want to have their own resources and industries. And the hippies that knew nothing about economics and history in the '70s seemed rather aware that the Vietnam war may have been an important factor behind the economic crisis. Like them, the OWS movement tends to be critical of military spending, especially when they see that welfare and job creation are weak. Backing for the financial system also ends up being "excepted" because large companies live off of it. In ant case, Reagan's "peace and strength" meant backing or provisioning tons of thugs and elitists in foreign countries, which abused or murdered their civil populations and created strife, when his diplomats weren't disrupting local initiatives that were trying to create regional economies. This in turn escalated economic interventionism, which in some cases led to more direct military meddling later. Because rich people create jobs. Not-so-rich-people, middle class and poor people and the government create jobs too. In addition, rich people also create unemployment because it cheapens costs. You can lie by stating a half truth. I never understood class warfare. Saying that calling out the 1%/99% problem is "class warfare" is a red scare tactic. I certainly stand behind my statement that most of America's media outlets are left-wing. It just represents more closely what most of the people in the US prefer, although still conditioned as a bunch of financial media companies processing and distributing news information. They prefer it, but they have few choices. It's left wing considering the Republican/Democratic spectrum, but that is a construct in the media and politics. Economically and in respect to the 80% of the population that doesn't have any direct weight in finance or politics, one is center-left to center-right, the other right to far right. The left in the US media shows up more in fringe publications and blogs, if anything. Perhaps if the OWS movement gets anywhere, you will eventually have a left, as well. Education is often a place where spending is wasteful. I'm sure people who don't want the crusty kids, dorks, hippies and socialists to get much intellectual capital would agree. In general these topics about "wasteful spending" are presented clinically, as if the speaker were neutral, but those who state them don't even need the services they are attacking, so they lose track of the value of what is supposedly wasteful, highlighting or exacerbating the presumed wastefulness or corruption. Satyr000 said: One of the best ways to cut down on medicaid and medicare spending is to change the systems so that it forces people to be responsible for there health. A person that drinks like a fish, has a pack a day smoking habit and eats a McDonalds for most of there meals should not have there healthcare fully covered by medicaid or medicare. We all know that doing any one of the above can lead toand most of the time will lead to long term health issues. Why should they use the money taken out of my paycheck to pay for your poor decisions? Since medicaid and medicare are mainly for poorer or retired people, the applicability of such a policy starts to suffer because the cause of their self-abusive behavior is often tied to poor education, including a lack of enough medical advice and supervision, or environmental stress beyond individual control. That sort of policy may work in private medical services where you can say "if you don't like this try something else" but then those people would be eligible to some kind of public coverage or at least non-profit services or a class of companies that don't disclaim against "self-inflicted" issues. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vordakk Posted October 14, 2011 Mr. T said:You're an idiot. Ask Henry Ford his ideas about "rich people" buying blue collar goods. You right wing tard. Ah, another lib who can't counter a conservative viewpoint with a cogent, logical argument of his own, but instead resorts to name-calling and grandstanding. How mature. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vordakk Posted October 14, 2011 Technician said:To be fair, it might be hard for Vordakk to relate to the common people, seeing as he's a platinum selling, chart-topping metal God. When did I ever say that I was anything like that??? Cite your sources, dude. I've sold maybe 1000 albums so far in my life, hardly chart-topping. I sense that someone's butthurt because there's a conservative in his midst, so he initiates character attacks. Chris Matthews would be proud. Gez said:You don't become a millionaire through hard work. You become one through inheritance, sheer luck, or crime. So all pro athletes and rap stars are criminals? Seriously, you can't really believe this, it's simply ignoring true life occurrences. Plus, you don't necessarily need to be a millionaire to have "made it". Going from living in a ghetto to working as a nurse in a hospital or an accountant, while not exactly millionaire salaries, mean a much better quality of life. And that's very doable through hard work in America. 0 Share this post Link to post
Xeros612 Posted October 14, 2011 ITT: leftists support whiny college kids in some bullshit "rich are evil" protest, insult anyone who dares to not have a leftist outlook on life. In other news, people breathe oxygen and it's dark at night. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vordakk Posted October 14, 2011 Xeros612 said:ITT: leftists support whiny college kids in some bullshit "rich are evil" protest, insult anyone who dares to not have a leftist outlook on life. In other news, people breathe oxygen and it's dark at night. Concise and to the point. :) Like I said, I'm not out to convert anyone, I just thought I'd give my opinion on the whole "Occupy X" phenomenon. Some people responded as adults, with some pretty decent arguments that I'm going to consider and research rather than simply dismiss in a closed-minded fashion. But the personal attacks do nothing...they have no constructive purpose, and I'm certainly not gonna cry myself to sleep over someone flaming me, so what's the point? 0 Share this post Link to post
GreyGhost Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said:So all pro athletes and rap stars are criminals? Seriously, you can't really believe this, it's simply ignoring true life occurrences. They fall into the "sheer luck" category. It's not that there's any shortage of suitably talented people who could replace them, they just happened to be in the right place at the right time to be "discovered" by an influential agent or manager who could give them a push up the ladder of success. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted October 14, 2011 Gez said:You don't become a millionaire through hard work. You become one through inheritance, sheer luck, or crime. Hard work can help you climb the social ladder a bit, but don't expect to rise that many rungs. Heh reminds me of the old joke about the guy who went to the US with just $1 in his pockets, bought an apple and sold it for $2, bought 2 apples and sold them for $4 and so on, and on one day he became a millionaire...thanks to an inheritance left to him by an aunt of his :-p The only people I ever heard supporting this old immigrant fairy-tale about the US being the "land of opportunity" and "giving a chance to everybody willing to work hard" were some latin american students I had met in Padua some 10 years ago. Needless to say, they were quite well-off to be there in the first place (with their parents being doctors, lawyers or high-ranking military), so they would personally never have to feel it/verify it on their own delicate asses, but they defended the US and the "American Dream" with a fervent zeal that's hard to explain. Sounded like a bad case of wanna be-ism to me. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vordakk Posted October 14, 2011 GreyGhost said:They fall into the "sheer luck" category. It's not that there's any shortage of suitably talented people who could replace them, they just happened to be in the right place at the right time to be "discovered" by an influential agent or manager who could give them a push up the ladder of success. So most musicians and athletes have similar talent levels(great to exceptional), it just comes down to "being at the right place at the right time"? Sounds like air tight logic to me :) So I guess John Carmack and John Romero made their fortunes by getting lucky too, huh? Or did they have wealthy benefactors? Whatever the cae, they couldn't possibly have achieved anything through hard work under a free market capitalist system. Naw, that's ludicrous. Even if people are "discovered" or are given a "push up" as you say, it's usually because they exhibit a strong work ethic and great talent. Fortune helps those who help themselves. 0 Share this post Link to post
Quast Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk's very first post in the thread, responding to a non-insult said:You clearly aren't American, or if you are you've got your head firmly jammed in your ass. hippies and crusty college kids protested then too. because they're too cheap to go buy a bullhorn(saving those dollars up for a sixer of Pabst Blue Ribbon). and other assorted human garbage. Vordakk said:Ah, another lib who can't counter a conservative viewpoint with a cogent, logical argument of his own, but instead resorts to name-calling and grandstanding. How mature. Indeed. Vordakk said:and a national defense plan that adhere's to Reagan's "peace through strength" maxim. The reagan administration literally funneled billions of dollars and god knows how many weapons to malcontents that use said money and weapons against us. Thus justifying our ridiculous defense budget and perpetuating continued military interventionism on our part. What a great plan. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted October 14, 2011 Quast said:The reagan administration literally funneled billions of dollars and god knows how many weapons to malcontents that use said money and weapons against us. Thus justifying our ridiculous defense budget and perpetuating continued military interventionism on our part. What a great plan. Now THAT's what I mean by getting returns on your investments, and is an INTEGRAL part of what makes this Great Country so Great. And let's not forget the boosting to the economy thanks to ample opportunities for reconstruction. 0 Share this post Link to post
CODOR Posted October 14, 2011 Technician said: To be fair, it might be hard for Vordakk to relate to the common people, seeing as he's a platinum selling, chart-topping metal God.Careful there, he might go all John Galt on us and decide to deny us of his genius! 0 Share this post Link to post
DeathevokatioN Posted October 14, 2011 Mr. T said:You right wing tard. You left wing tard. :P 0 Share this post Link to post
Wagi Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said:I sense that someone's butthurt because there's a conservative in his midst, so he initiates character attacks. So far you've called all liberals "Socialists", "Hippies", "Human garbage", "Anti-semites". You've called me personally a "Bleeding heart". You have revoked your right to bitch and whine about character attacks. So I guess John Carmack and John Romero made their fortunes by getting lucky too, huh? Or did they have wealthy benefactors? Whatever the cae, they couldn't possibly have achieved anything through hard work under a free market capitalist system. Naw, that's ludicrous.There very well may have been a coder who was ten times as hardworking and talented as John Carmack but never got discovered because he didn't have access to artists, or the latest "bleeding edge" computers of the time. John Carmack clearly started with something because the Doom engine doesn't run on a barrel-fire and a can of beans. I think the problem here is your black and white thinking. Everybody who makes little money is lazy. Everybody who makes a lot of money must be very hard working. This isn't some fairy-tale land where we have no outside influences that keep us down and push us up. Yes, I will admit that hard work has an influence, but the conservative viewpoint purports that it's the only influence. 0 Share this post Link to post
GreyGhost Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said:So most musicians and athletes have similar talent levels(great to exceptional), it just comes down to "being at the right place at the right time"? Sounds like air tight logic to me :) So I guess John Carmack and John Romero made their fortunes by getting lucky too, huh? Or did they have wealthy benefactors? Whatever the cae, they couldn't possibly have achieved anything through hard work under a free market capitalist system. Naw, that's ludicrous. I'll admit that for every rule there are exceptions. OTOH - for every John Carmack who's pulled himself up by his bootstraps you have at least a dozen Lachlan Murdochs who owe it all to nepotism. 0 Share this post Link to post
Dco16 Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said:...with some pretty decent arguments that I'm going to consider and research rather than simply dismiss in a closed-minded fashion. EDIT: Aw, forget it. 0 Share this post Link to post
CODOR Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said: So I guess John Carmack and John Romero made their fortunes by getting lucky too, huh? Or did they have wealthy benefactors? Whatever the cae, they couldn't possibly have achieved anything through hard work under a free market capitalist system. Naw, that's ludicrous.Didn't Carmack steal a computer when he was a teenager? Dangerous Dave In Copyright Infringement was essentially a copy of Super Mario Bros. for the PC. The guys who would go on to found id "borrowed" computers from Softdisk in order to finish it. I think they did the same with Commander Keen. Wolfenstein 3D was based upon the earlier Castle Wolfenstein (id was able to use the name for free as the trademark had lapsed). Doom was briefly envisioned as being based upon Aliens. Even the whole multiplayer FPS thing was originally used in MIDI Maze years earlier. Sounds like Carmack and Romero made their fortunes like everyone else, by standing on the shoulders of giants... 0 Share this post Link to post
geo Posted October 14, 2011 Plays Final Fantasy to obtain flame armor. 0 Share this post Link to post
Mr. T Posted October 14, 2011 Honestly, I love capitalism and freedom and burgers, but these dudes shilling for the 1% piss me the fuck off. Grow a brain before coming in the thread and whining about liberals and character attacks. Cuz you are on the wrong side of the equation. 0 Share this post Link to post
Sharessa Posted October 14, 2011 I was going to argue against Vordakk's points, but for one thing, I don't have 7 hours to kill (lot of work to do today), and I remembered that it's not nice to pick on the mentally disabled (or am I being too much of a 'bleeding heart'). Wagi said:Wow, you sound just like the people at Fox News. The bottom 50% pay no income taxes whatsoever. They still pay sales tax, amongst other federal taxes. And there's a damned good reason for that. Low income Americans are already completely fucked if they get so much as a broken wrist. They don't need the government adding to their debt. Just so you know, that '53%' is completely made up bullshit. Only 53% of the country pays income tax IF you count prisoners, elderly, and kids. If you count everyone of working age, it would be more like 80%, I'm sure. I only made $10,000 last year and I still paid federal income tax. Also, I don't think there's actually a federal sales tax. I could be wrong, though. 0 Share this post Link to post
Maes Posted October 14, 2011 Just call a Poe on Vordakk and be done with it :-p 0 Share this post Link to post
Vordakk Posted October 14, 2011 Wagi said:So far you've called all liberals "Socialists", "Hippies", "Human garbage", "Anti-semites". Go back and re-read. I called certain members of the "Occupy" phenomenon those things, and even then I didn't extend it to all of them. Your reading comprehension skills need work. And truthfully, some of them are. There are videos and audio soundbites from the rallies where people clearly say, "The Jews control Wall Street!", holding signs which refer to the conspiracy theory that wealthy Jewish bankers control all financial institutions. Here's but a fraction of it. Obviously not all people from any one group fall squarely into one box. Telling me that I think in black and white, while untrue, certainly makes you feel better about how "enlightened" you think you are. Wagi said:Bullshit. Find me one school where they do this. Here you are. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6395403&page=1 0 Share this post Link to post
Bucket Posted October 14, 2011 If it's one thing Republicans are good at, it's selling the American people on a dream, then doing everything in their power to make sure no one can attain it. Vordakk, our resident Kool-Aid drinker. 0 Share this post Link to post
Wagi Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said:And truthfully, some of them are. There are videos and audio soundbites from the rallies where people clearly say, "The Jews control Wall Street!", holding signs which refer to the conspiracy theory that wealthy Jewish bankers control all financial institutions. Here's but a fraction of it.I guess if we're going to base our respect of a group based on the racists in the midst, I guess I'm going to have to play my race card as well. http://leftwingconspiracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/motivatord12899390.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_NUZ_fM-TQKQ/TD2p42jlOYI/AAAAAAAARiw/6JUlH4Tyu9c/s320/00000129cec282f4b738f387007f000000000001.obamaracism2.jpg http://mokellyreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/obamaafrican.jpg http://mokellyreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/obamanoose.jpg http://s3.amazonaws.com/bt_assets/system/idea_thumbnails/20923/original/3447473218_16ec086ac3_b.jpg?1279162988 Here you are. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6395403&page=1 Oh I thought you meant "Abolishing failing grades", not "renaming the failing grade and giving students a makeup test". In my school they use 'E' instead of 'F', but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a failing grade. 0 Share this post Link to post
Technician Posted October 14, 2011 I'm also shocked and appalled he's chosen an ultra-liberal biased news corp as ABC as a reference. 0 Share this post Link to post
Vordakk Posted October 14, 2011 Bucket said:If it's one thing Republicans are good at, it's selling the American people on a dream, then doing everything in their power to make sure no one can attain it. Vordakk, our resident Kool-Aid drinker. Never said I was Republican, bud. I said Conservative. Republican is a party affiliation, nothing more. Conservatism is a political and social philosophy. I vote Independent more than Republican. And I'm sure no one on the left ever drank the Kool-Aid. The left is full of enlightened free-thinkers, while my side is just a bunch of closed-minded moronic sheep, right? So much for shades of grey. 0 Share this post Link to post
Dco16 Posted October 14, 2011 I'm just going to put this here for reference: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213 Look at the 50's, a time of prosperity for the US (well, for white people). Tax rate for the top earners = 90% Look at the years 1929-1931. Tax rate = 25%. Those job creators were taxed at a lower rate than they are now and they still didn't create jobs. Damn. I guess we should just ask for nothing from them, maybe then they'll start creating jobs. I like how rich people can buy reps to hold the economy hostage because they don't want to pay 39.6% when from 1932-1980 they paid 70% or above. Was it class warfare then? Were we a socialist country before Reagan showed up? 0 Share this post Link to post
Technician Posted October 14, 2011 Vordakk said:The left is full of enlightened free-thinkers, while my side is just a bunch of closed-minded moronic sheep, right? So much for shades of grey. Heh, insinuating the people rebutting you as a whole are a liberal think-tank and not just level-headed individuals calling out your ridiculous bullshit. Remember, we're not arguing as a liberal collective. 0 Share this post Link to post
Csonicgo Posted October 14, 2011 Xeros612 and Vordakk said:I've got mine, so fuck you Did I get that right? 0 Share this post Link to post