Innocence of Muslims

The thing is, it's not possible to have just one religion. As soon as two people interpret the same notion in two different ways, you have a schism. Look at Christianity for example: you've had the first schism between the Orient (Orthodox) and Occident (Catholic) based on distance and the fragmentation of the Roman Empire; then a second split when in the west people thought the Church had gone corrupt and needed to be reformed, leading to the Protestants, which themselves are divided into two main groups (Lutherans and Calvinists), which are split among thousands upon thousands of sects, some big and some small. Meanwhile, the Orthodox also splintered between Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, and they don't care that "eastern" and "oriental" mean the same thing. And that's not even talking about some other weird splinter groups here and there, like the Mormons.

Islam is likewise.

And even if you remove religion from the equation entirely, then you still have "atheistic religions", such as Nazism, Maoism, Juche, etc. A cult of a personality, a mythology, a dogma with repression of heretics and blasphemers, a holy book... Sure, it doesn't claim to be a religion, but it has the same trappings, stimulate the same centers of the brain, and leads to the same excesses.

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Gez said:

The thing is, it's not possible to have just one religion. As soon as two people interpret the same notion in two different ways, you have a schism.

It's inevitable because religious beliefs aren't based on facts, evidence or reality, so there's nothing to ground them. As soon as a few people have "faith" in something slightly different, you've suddenly got a whole new sect.

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Creaphis said:

Muslims are idiots.


In Paris, yesterday, a muslim demonstration against the video united salafists and gangstas but no man in the street muslim who doesn’t care.

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If you paid attention, the pics are from Reuters.

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Random aside: Can't Allah take care of himself? I admit I am no theologian, but I don't get the whole mentality of wanting to kill people because they insulted your religion. If you're right, and your God is real, he not only has the power to punish them, but the power to punish them for all eternity. Why would you feel the need to take matters into your own hands when your God can handle it?

I keep thinking this is a stupid question, but I don't really have an answer, either. Even when I considered myself religious, this concept never made sense to me. I mean, the Bible was full of stories about God punishing nonbelievers, and because of that, I never felt it was my job to deal with them. It's like, the Bible makes it clear that bad people will get what's coming to them even if I do nothing. Why not just be content with that?

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That's not a stupid question at all. It's a very good point, one of the best I've seen on this thread.
In this case, Muhammad is dead, granted, he can't do anything about it.
But Allah (assuming he exists, [if a muslim finds this we're fucked]) is supposedly still alive. Let him smite them down or whatever it is Allah does.

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geekmarine said:

Random aside: Can't Allah take care of himself? I admit I am no theologian, but I don't get the whole mentality of wanting to kill people because they insulted your religion. If you're right, and your God is real, he not only has the power to punish them, but the power to punish them for all eternity. Why would you feel the need to take matters into your own hands when your God can handle it?

I keep thinking this is a stupid question, but I don't really have an answer, either. Even when I considered myself religious, this concept never made sense to me. I mean, the Bible was full of stories about God punishing nonbelievers, and because of that, I never felt it was my job to deal with them. It's like, the Bible makes it clear that bad people will get what's coming to them even if I do nothing. Why not just be content with that?


This is because you look at religion as if it is a question of faith, spirituality, and mysticism. But it's not. Or at least, not only. It's also a question of social control. That is the important part.

Now, what happens when one spreads blasphemes and heresies? Best case scenario, lightning comes down from the sky and strikes him down, convincing every witness that God punished the miscreant, and you get full attendance at the place of worship for years to come. But let's be honest, this is rather unlikely. In most cases, what happens is pretty much nothing, exactly as if the entire concept of God was a big lie, and some of the crowd listening to the ranting offender will be convinced. The fear of God decreases in the population, and that means that people escape your control, start behaving in ways you don't like, and worse of all, stop paying their tithe. I think we can all agree that this is pretty much unforgivable.

So, you've got to take matters in your own hands, and claim to be acting as the instrument of God. It's not you murdering somebody, it's God acting through you smiting an infidel. Much better this way. So the heretical and blasphemous ideas will not corrupt innocent souls and people will be afraid of God -- or at least, afraid of you -- and behave like God dictates through your mouth. Coincidentally, God has exactly the same ideas you do about how people should behave, but it's to be expected; it's why you were chosen in the first place.


So that's your answer. If you have an individualist view of religion, if you believe that it's up to everyone to go on a mystical quest of discovery so as to realize that yes, they have Faith in God; then indeed you are not going to care. Your faith is your faith, and cannot be marred by what other people think and say. But if your view of religion is one of group, of clan, then it'll be important for you to make sure other people think in the right way. You don't have time to waste waiting for them to walk through the path all the way; so you're just going to give them the cheat-sheet ("repeat after me: God hates fags! God hates fags! God hates fags! Okay, your catechism is over; now you know the basics and fundamentals, the rest is just window dressings.") and you're going to make them they don't deviate from the path you've given them. What matters isn't what you think, it's what other people think.

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But...if you take it upon yourself to take your God's place with the vengeance, then surely you are likening yourself to your god?

I, too know very little about this matter, but I'm fairly sure that it's frowned upon to do so.

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I guess that's my downfall. I'm an atheist now, but I was raised Christian, and as a Christian, I was always taught that individual faith was the most important thing. If you sought control of other people, you were missing the point. If your faith depended upon what others believed, you were missing the point. If the miracle didn't happen, if the nonbeliever wasn't smited, so what, you were that much better for still believing. If you didn't trust in God that the nonbeliever would face eternal punishment, your faith was lacking.

I mean, I can understand Islam from a point of view of social control, but it just goes completely against every notion of religion I was brought up in. In the religion I was brought up in, to do these things would be to admit that you didn't really even believe in the first place, and your individual belief was the most important thing. It's hard for me to imagine the concept of belief on a social, not individual level.

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Islam is very big on social control. It is an important part in all religions; but it is in Islam that it has been pushed the farthest (discounting some cults here and there that are often illegal).

Why do you think there are five mandatory prayers a day, where everything stops and everybody is supposed to be lying on a carpet in the street with their head on the ground and their butt to the sky? Why do you think there is Ramadan? Religion dictates everything about how people live their life; from how they dress to how they cook and also how far away they can go from their place of prayer and how long they can work on anything without interruption. And of course, there's the sharia.

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Gez said:

Why do you think there are five mandatory prayers a day, where everything stops and everybody is supposed to be lying on a carpet in the street with their head on the ground and their butt to the sky? Why do you think there is Ramadan? Religion dictates everything about how people live their life; from how they dress to how they cook and also how far away they can go from their place of prayer and how long they can work on anything without interruption. And of course, there's the sharia.


Apparently, all the lecturing Greeks get about being super-efficient and super-duper-globally-competitive and shit doesn't count with Muslims...oh wait, you CAN'T tell em that because they have Sharia and will go Jihad on your ass...now THAT's a good idea...

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Maes said:

Apparently, all the lecturing Greeks get about being super-efficient and super-duper-globally-competitive and shit doesn't count with Muslims...oh wait, you CAN'T tell em that because they have Sharia and will go Jihad on your ass...now THAT's a good idea...

A Moroccan friend of mine once explained to me how he once got a temp job in some company where the regular employees didn't do anything. They'd chat with each other by the coffee machine, go the toilet, check the planner to verify what they were supposed to do on that day, and many other stalling activities, managing to push off doing any actual work until it was time to pray. An entire floor of the offices was devoted to praying (and lavishly decorated).

The business eventually bankrupted, though. They only money they earned were government subsidies because they were people in M6's family among the executive staff, and it dried out when they moved on to an even comfier, lazier, and more prestigious place.

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Maes said:

Apparently, all the lecturing Greeks get about being super-efficient and super-duper-globally-competitive and shit

heh

Also lazy jobs suck, they make life seem pointless.

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How childish and barbaric these people respond, I'm sure ignoring it like any sane person would have helped..

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The production quality is so laughably low that I couldn't sit through it for more than two minutes.

Muslims getting so riled by this crappy film is a testament to their insanity.

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its the usual, few destroys for many, the morons who reacted with violence is not supported by the rest of the muslims

at least I hope so

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Remember when Islam was the religion of dissent, civil rights, basketball players, Malcolm X, boxers, and real leaders? What happened? Someone please explain it to me.

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Csonicgo said:

Remember when Islam was the religion of dissent, civil rights, basketball players, Malcolm X, boxers, and real leaders? What happened? Someone please explain it to me.

You mean that era where it was in the United States' best interests to have friendly relations with the middle east? I'm 90% sure crazy shit has always happened in regards to all religions. It's just convenient for news networks to seek out the dumbest of the dumb and project that idea as the norm. Keeps the Überpatriots happy.

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D_GARG said:

its the usual, few destroys for many, the morons who reacted with violence is not supported by the rest of the muslims

at least I hope so


Sadly, no: the majority of Muslim countries you can't really call "moderate". The most "moderate" ones would the 2-3 muslim enclaves in Europe (and still, we're talking about shithole places like Albania, Kosovo, FYROM and Bosnia), followed by Turkey, by some Arab countries BEFORE their dictatorial regimes fell. And these were the GOOD ones. It just goes downhill from there.

Just imagine if the trends in Christianity was inverted, and fanatical "Born Again Christians", televangelists, Mormons, and even Amish were the norm, while "nonobservant" or "loosely observant" Christians were a feeble minority. That's how Islam actually is.

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Csonicgo said:

Remember when Islam was the religion of dissent, civil rights, basketball players, Malcolm X, boxers, and real leaders? What happened? Someone please explain it to me.


The Cold War ended, and so America needed a new enemy.

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Looks like Russia are the first to blink and try to ban/censor the film. As if that's going to help.

Horse. Bolted. Gate.

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The ironic thing with those batshit muslim protests, is that most of the victims are also muslims and they literally die like flies when such riots are sparked, yet they seem not to give a shit.

Hell, they even stampede and stone each other to death in one of their their holiest places...

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Stampede. Really. There are some analogies that I could make here between the worshipers and certain bovine species, but I'm above comparing them to mindless cattle with a herd mentality and no respect for each other.

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Krispy said:

I'm above comparing them to mindless cattle with a herd mentality and no respect for each other.


They don't need your approval to behave exactly like quoted, though.

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Maes said:

Sadly, no: the majority of Muslim countries you can't really call "moderate". The most "moderate" ones would the 2-3 muslim enclaves in Europe (and still, we're talking about shithole places like Albania, Kosovo, FYROM and Bosnia), followed by Turkey, by some Arab countries BEFORE their dictatorial regimes fell. And these were the GOOD ones. It just goes downhill from there.


There are plenty of moderate Muslim states in Asia, including the largest (by population) in the world – Indonesia.

I find it interesting that people are so willing to condemn people in these countries for "overreacting" to an insult against them, when "we" are the ones killing them on a large scale. ~100k civilian casualties in Iraq alone would speak for themselves. If they weren't dead.

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