Meanwhile at Linux HQ

LINUX PROGRAMMER 1: Whew, I just wrapped up coding some wireless card drivers. Now I can upload them to the repository so that people can download them through the terminal.

LINUX PROGRAMMER 2: Awesome. Should we perhaps make them available for HTTP download as well, in case someone is incapable of accessing the repository on account of them needing wireless card drivers?

LINUX PROGRAMMER 1: Ha ha. That's the most ridiculous and outlandish scenario I've ever heard. Where do you come up with this stuff?

ME: Fuck you.
Fuck.
You.

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Yeah... this doesn't happen with any sane distro.

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What is this about? Of course you need Internet connection in order to download something.

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chungy said:

Yeah... this doesn't happen with any sane distro.


How about weird firmware pieces which take extensive googling?

Intel firmware pieces were nearly impossible for me to find. I found them in a huge tar.gz archive somewhere.

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printz said:

What is this about? Of course you need Internet connection in order to download something.


Yeah. But there is "download something on computer A, put it on floppy/USB stick/external hard drive/whatever, plug said media in Internet-less computer B" -- it's something that might happen!

Or alternatively, there is also "boot computer in Windows, download Linux drivers, reboot in Linux, use drivers". This is also something that might happen!

Enters the update repository system where things can only be installed directly from the online repo, you can no longer use this kind of indirect download.

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Gez said:

Enters the update repository system where things can only be installed directly from the online repo, you can no longer use this kind of indirect download.

Shouldn't that sort of thing be available even outside of an 'only' place? It's free software, after all. Whatever walled gardens are there, it should be possible to disable them (and enable them just for convenience), as per GPLv3 rules.

Can't anyone else (if not the original authors) share those driver installers and put them on a forum?

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printz said:

Shouldn't that sort of thing be available even outside of an 'only' place? It's free software, after all. Whatever walled gardens are there, it should be possible to disable them (and enable them just for convenience), as per GPLv3 rules.

Can't anyone else (if not the original authors) share those driver installers and put them on a forum?

Shouldn't and couldn't? Sure it should and of course they could, but that's the point; no one's apparently doing it in this particular case so wtf.

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I'm ignorant. Why is Linux awesome?

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geo said:

I'm ignorant. Why is Linux awesome?


Some argue that GNU is awesome cuz its freedom respecting software where the user controls the program instead of the program controlling the user (this helps prevent the government from integrating your computer with all your house's information gathering lightbulbs and robot video recording mosquitos so they can't take a picture of you every time you poop). "Linux" is the attempted hijacking of GNU by the elite PR reptiloid Linus Torvalds.

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gggmork said:

Some argue that GNU is awesome cuz its freedom respecting software where the user controls the program instead of the program controlling the user (this helps prevent the government from integrating your computer with all your house's information gathering lightbulbs and robot video recording mosquitos so they can't take a picture of you every time you poop). "Linux" is the attempted hijacking of GNU by the elite PR reptiloid Linus Torvalds.


What? I remember having a cab driver a decade ago that felt there was a robotic hawk following him.

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Gez said:

Yeah. But there is "download something on computer A, put it on floppy/USB stick/external hard drive/whatever, plug said media in Internet-less computer B" -- it's something that might happen!

Not only is it something that MIGHT happen, I can't imagine any other way to get drivers onto a machine with a clean install unless the hardware already has complete native support.

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Gez said:

Enters the update repository system where things can only be installed directly from the online repo, you can no longer use this kind of indirect download.

Except they all basically transfer over HTTP anyway because there's no point in reinventing the technique of transferring files. At worst you have to browse through an httpd-generated directory listing, download the file, get to the other computer, install.

printz said:

Shouldn't that sort of thing be available even outside of an 'only' place? It's free software, after all. Whatever walled gardens are there, it should be possible to disable them (and enable them just for convenience), as per GPLv3 rules.

GPLv3 rules are fine and all if all software is GPL-licensed, but that's just nitpicking and missing the point. Some packages (drivers and firmware are one such example) pretty much require distro-specific integration so the pre-built packages are almost a necessity; still, you can pretty much always get the packages manually.

Bucket said:

Not only is it something that MIGHT happen, I can't imagine any other way to get drivers onto a machine with a clean install unless the hardware already has complete native support.

So was there any point to this thread?

(also you could base64 encode stuff and write it out by hand... but that gets quickly tiresome. More pedanticism!)

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Fun story, when I first got this computer and installed Vista (this was back when Vista was relevant, mind you), it did not support my wireless card and the disk that came with the card did not have 64bit drivers. So I installed Ubuntu on another partition and it natively worked with my card and I was able to grab the win64 drivers from the manufacturer's website. I should have known right then that I should have just stuck with Ubuntu. Oh well!

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Gez said:

you can no longer use this kind of indirect download.

Like chungy said you can certainly download the packages on another computer and transfer them over. (See Bloodshedder's post for how.) On Ubuntu it comes down to just double clicking the deb file. Might have to go back a forth a bit to resolve all the dependencies, but it can be done if it has to be.

Personally in this situation I just plug a wire in since I've yet to find a wired NIC that isn't supported out of the box. Unsupported wireless card is getting increasing rare on Ubuntu as well.

Nomad, I've actually had a similar situation with Windows XP once. Only it was the wired network card wasn't supported and we couldn't find the motherboard's disc.

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Blzut3 said:

Like chungy said you can certainly download the packages on another computer and transfer them over. (See Bloodshedder's post for how.)

>Search b43-open
>No Results found.
The firmware files that Debian is asking me for during the install procedure apparently don't exist in the Debian repository. I guess I'm just being trolled.

chungy said:

So was there any point to this thread?

Not really, other than once again demonstrating the end-user experience failures of GNU/Linux that might not be obvious to a low-level developer. Imagine if the only way you could obtain drivers on your Windows machine was through Windows Update. Outrageous, right?

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chungy said:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en

Try harder.

(In other words, it's pretty clearly documented in the installation guide. If you don't read the directions, it's not their fault.)


That documentation is bullshit.

Any firmware loaded during the installation will be copied automatically to the installed system. In most cases this will ensure that the device that requires the firmware will also work correctly after the system is rebooted into the installed system. However, if the installed system runs a different kernel version from the installer there is a slight chance that the firmware cannot be loaded due to version skew.


NOT true. It has NEVER been true. Every time I boot into Debian from my External HD, I've had to insert that stick drive with the firmware for my Intel Wireless... and even then, Debian does not detect the Wireless in the GUI. I can't connect to anything, can't scan for networks. I have to edit a PLAINTEXT FILE WITH THE SSID AND ITS PASSWORD IN IT, IN PLAIN TEXT, HAHAHAHAH

What a joke. No wonder Linux is behind, its documentation is "what we wish would happen" and not "what actually happens", which proves to me that no one tests this software in the slightest.

Bucket, you have my complete support if you want to ditch linux and go Mac or whatever, at least Windows and Mac has wireless BS figured out. Linux devs still think you need to have long cables everywhere, I guess.

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For the record, there's a reason Ubuntu and derivatives exist. ;) Given that Csonicgo mentions Intel wireless needing firmware (which I was not aware of since my Intel cards work out of the box on Ubuntu) this might be one of the usability problems that have been solved.

And before anyone mentions Unity, you are not forced to use Unity in any way.

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Csonicgo said:

How about weird firmware pieces which take extensive googling?


In such cases, you're usually told not to use noname crap hardware made in Laos, Bangladesh, Hong Kong, Singapore, North Korea, China etc. (as if there is any other kind, nowadays), be given a pointer to some high-end, TOTL piece of hardware and be directed to a newegg.com link or somesuch.

Perversely, the noname Bangladeshi hardware (usually in the form of some crappy chipset) will be found in about 99% of market offering, except of course the "Golden" Wunderwaffe ultra-stable, ultra-compatible and ultra-supported hardware that apparently every linux fanboy seems to use.

OK, there IS better hardware out there, but if your NIC says "Realtek" on it, don't bother: it will be out of your league (and wallet).

If you come from Windows where everybody uses whatever crappy hardware with Bangladeshi driver, a big warm "fuck you" will be all the "support" you'll be getting from most lunix communities.

Gez said:

Yeah. But there is "download something on computer A, put it on floppy/USB stick/external hard drive/whatever, plug said media in Internet-less computer B" -- it's something that might happen!


That's only half the job: with most distros you need to set up a temporary off-line repository, so unless you have the data AND the knowledge to set it up, you're screwed (assuming you don't have to download any additionl packages to set up the repository itself...). And don't say you can "just google for it" ;-)

Until the -apparently too innovative- concept of a platform-standard, executable, pre-compiled, self-contained installer for applictions AND drivers becomes commonplace on linux, such scenarios will always happen (only major exception I'm aware of: proprietary ATI/AMD drivers, and we know how much the community "loves" proprietary, binary blobs...)

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Csonicgo said:

That documentation is bullshit.

NOT true. It has NEVER been true. Every time I boot into Debian from my External HD, I've had to insert that stick drive with the firmware for my Intel Wireless... and even then, Debian does not detect the Wireless in the GUI. I can't connect to anything, can't scan for networks. I have to edit a PLAINTEXT FILE WITH THE SSID AND ITS PASSWORD IN IT, IN PLAIN TEXT, HAHAHAHAH


I'm calling BS on you. Go ahead and look what they're asking you to put on the stick: packages. The installer should indeed be installing them to the final system when you need them, and in no way does the system itself automatically load package files on a normal boot (installer exempting); do you even know how utterly insane and dangerous that would be?

So EVEN in the case that the firmware is NOT installed on the system, if you install it later on... that should be all you need to do. Ever.

Csonicgo said:

What a joke. No wonder Linux is behind, its documentation is "what we wish would happen" and not "what actually happens", which proves to me that no one tests this software in the slightest.


If there's an actual issue, reportbug is installed on every Debian system. If you want the situation to actually improve (and there's a real complaint), use it.

Blutz3 said:

For the record, there's a reason Ubuntu and derivatives exist. ;) Given that Csonicgo mentions Intel wireless needing firmware (which I was not aware of since my Intel cards work out of the box on Ubuntu) this might be one of the usability problems that have been solved.


Ubuntu does its own things, as any derivative should (there'd be no reason to not just be Debian otherwise), but the firmware situation is not one they change. It's intended to work universally in the same way. If CSG's not just blowing hot air, he really ought to report a bug or his problem will never be fixed.

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chungy said:

If CSG's not just blowing hot air, he really ought to report a bug or his problem will never be fixed.


More proof no one tests this software. I expect software to be fully beta-tested and working when I get it. the users should NOT be the beta-testers. You think Google would allow that with their Android platform? or Apple with their iOS platform? Or MS with their Windows Server platforms?

no.

Because there's no way to report the bug that I saw (it's not obvious, and I should not have to register an account on a bug reporting system that's slow as hell to report this), I guess it will never be reported. I have already pleaded with the Canonical guys to fix their Wifi drivers, they did not do so ; they told me to wait six months, I don't have time for that. Especially since "reportbug" requires internet, when I currently wouldn't have it.

So really, call BS. Doesn't make my statement any less true. I know it's true because I saw it with my own eyes. Unless this was a "fluke" that's happened about 7 times in total when it comes to installing Linux in my experience.

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Csonicgo said:

More proof no one tests this software. I expect software to be fully beta-tested and working when I get it. the users should NOT be the beta-testers.

Good. The first release candidate is currently out for the installer for 7.0. Go find out if it's still an issue for you, and if it is, put some effort into making sure it's not still an issue on release time. (You'd think this was rocket science or something?)

Csonicgo said:

You think Google would allow that with their Android platform? or Apple with their iOS platform? Or MS with their Windows Server platforms?

no.

Yes, actually, because it's pretty much the normal operation mode for these types of companies (Android may be open source but it's all done behind closed doors Cathedral-style, so it effectively gets no widespread testing). Hell, just look at the fact that Android 4.2.0 somehow LEFT OUT THE WHOLE MONTH OF DECEMBER IN THE OS. For a version released in November. It happens, it sucks, it gets fixed later on. Debian makes the extra effort to minimize these bugs before release, but it's hard to do that if they don't know about it.

Csonicgo said:

Because there's no way to report the bug that I saw (it's not obvious, and I should not have to register an account on a bug reporting system that's slow as hell to report this), I guess it will never be reported. I have already pleaded with the Canonical guys to fix their Wifi drivers, they did not do so ; they told me to wait six months, I don't have time for that. Especially since "reportbug" requires internet, when I currently wouldn't have it.

So really, call BS. Doesn't make my statement any less true. I know it's true because I saw it with my own eyes. Unless this was a "fluke" that's happened about 7 times in total when it comes to installing Linux in my experience.

And here you demonstrate no willingness to even try to participate. There's no "registration" or anything, Debian's bug system is entirely email-driven, and you can even get bugs through even when the machine cannot get online, by sending it on another computer. Then again, you seemed to have claimed to have a work-around to get online anyway, so reportbug would be all the much more smoother.

As for the 7 times, were they all on the same computer, or at least the same hardware configuration? Repeatable bugs are the best kind: they can be reliably checked if they are fixed or not.

If you have no willingness to actually report anything to people that can actually solve problems (ie: not a forum thread on Doomworld they're likely to never know about), then you don't have any legitimate right to bitch.

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I moved on. I'm trying something like BSD or just a VM with Ubuntu inside, so that I know it works. Because Linux is hell if you try it natively.


Damn right I won't participate. I tried. Ten years of it. I got bullshit for a response. They can figure it out for themselves, because "Works for me" was all I've got.

I'd be more forgiving if I hadn't been trying Linux for a decade. I lost my patience some time ago. It's a failure. That's why Linux is only on servers, and not desktops. It's why Windows is used in the industry. You think Photoshop and adobe flash Professional will ever be ported to Linux?

And since the Linux community started to bash Android for not being "real Linux" (when it truly is), I started to realize how infantile the community is.

Enjoy your buggy software, bro!

chungy said:

If you have no willingness to actually report anything to people that can actually solve problems (ie: not a forum thread on Doomworld they're likely to never know about), then you don't have any legitimate right to bitch.


Glad to see you're the right giver on this forum. I'll be sure to ask you next time I need to exercise the "post reply" button.

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chungy said:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en

Try harder.

(In other words, it's pretty clearly documented in the installation guide. If you don't read the directions, it's not their fault.)

Oh shit, I had no idea that I could put files on a flash drive and load them during the install. Also, how did you find that webpage? I tried to find a page like that. If only there were some search thingy I could go to, insert some search terms and the search thingy will search the internet for relevant webpages. Sadly, those don't exist.

Anyway...
There is a possibility that downloading those incomplete files and installing them via flash drive would work but I'm not a betting man. Best case scenario: the wireless works but Debian is already installed, and without all the useful apps that are usually downloaded from a mirror DURING the install.

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exp(x) said:

Another CSG Linux hate-fest. How constructive.


I TRIED to love Linux, but when it comes to wifi, it fails. that alone is why I don't use it. Sucks, but when you can't internet, you can't do anything anymore.


Bucket said:

Best case scenario: the wireless works but Debian is already installed, and without all the useful apps that are usually downloaded from a mirror DURING the install.


that's pretty much on point.

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