Carmack accused of stealing Oculus Rift tech

Gez said:

You attributed one of geo's posts to me in your quotes.


Fixed.

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printz said:

What about using fake names and nicknames while at it? Maybe he'd keep under the radar that way.

it's probably not worth the risk of losing your job for the sake of a hobby, though.

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Clonehunter said:

Hmm, so companies can buy our thoughts now... Interesting.


This is why we need stronger labor laws. Arrangements like this should be illegal--the employer should only be allowed the code you write for the employer's own projects, nothing else.

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I feel so bad for trying to believe Zenimax wouldn't be giant pieces of shit about everything once they and iD got together.

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Woolie Wool said:

This is why we need stronger labor laws. Arrangements like this should be illegal--the employer should only be allowed the code you write for the employer's own projects, nothing else.

Well, the good "news" is that most people who program source ports and other utilities here also work professionally as programmers, meaning that they aren't being kept by the leash, or if they are, it's not for everything they work on.

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When I worked for a big tech company they owned any code I wrote that had anything to do with them. They did have a thing where I could tell them about anything I was already working on so that was exempt.

Somebody like John Carmack should have his contracts written so this isn't a problem for him. If he didn't then he needs to become best buddies with a good lawyer from now on.

An interesting case is LuciusDXL. He won't give away his identity because he says his hobby stuff (XL engine) needs to stay far, far away from whatever his meatspace job is. Those of us who follow his work are largely happy with this arrangement as long as he is.

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My contract says the company owns anything I make in the field of their business, or with their resources. I thought it was common.

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So basicly, you could get some great idea and you would get only your avarage payment for month, while the company owner would just patent the idea and then sell it for millions to the world with neither producing some tangible stuff or using his brain to solve something.
Way for sociopaths to suck money from people without even contributing.

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FireFish said:

This is odd to say the least.
But my guess is that this 'RIFT' device will fluke and flop like every VR helmet ever made since SEGA tried it in the 80's and VFX in the 90's.
all it does is exactly the same but with better graphics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0n5B3fl-bU


Except all of those were actually terrible. Most of them would either give you headaches or make you throw up after enough time in use. This new generation is far superior what with the new technologies available. I remember using a VFX1 at a computer expo back in the day and it was cool but even then I knew it wasn't the real deal. The Oculus, and Sony's project Morpheus, are lightyears ahead of those old devices.

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Nomad said:

Except all of those were actually terrible. Most of them would either give you headaches or make you throw up after enough time in use. This new generation is far superior what with the new technologies available. I remember using a VFX1 at a computer expo back in the day and it was cool but even then I knew it wasn't the real deal. The Oculus, and Sony's project Morpheus, are lightyears ahead of those old devices.


good point there Nomad.
Well i do not believe in the 'aware or informed' factor of modern generations... But they absorb these tech. as if it was a life sustaining substance. so in the end if it is made decent and good it might still break trough as a one of a kind super technology.


edit :
altered a severe case of bad formulation.

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As if we needed more proof of just how insane ZeniMax is.

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AndrewB said:

The entire concept of "intellectual property" is a load of garbage.


This. Its like putting a copyright symbol on every stupid you've ever had. Shit if that were the case, I'd be a major entrepreneur by now. "MY THOUGHTS WERE FIRST, YOURS WERE SECOND SO GIVE ME ALL OF YOUR MONEY" is literally what it is and nothing more, pure jealousy.

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Quasar said:

As if we needed more proof of just how insane ZeniMax is.


Careful there, they might sue you for defamation.

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ZeniMax is not insane it's EVIL!
First they buy ID SOFTWARE and now they sue one of the most important people in the world?!
There are no words that can describe ZeniMax except that it's corruption incarnate.

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lol

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J.B.R said:

ZeniMax is not insane it's EVIL!
First they buy ID SOFTWARE and now they sue one of the most important people in the world?!

It's partially Carmack's fault. He allowed Zenimax to acquire id, and I'm sure you know that a company cannot buy another without its consent, right? AFAIK, Carmack had no actual authority in the decision, but his superiors didn't want him to leave so they took his approval into account.

In retrospect, it was clearly a bad move. They should have just closed instead, rather than allow themselves to get harassed by a parent company and continue to produce mediocre content. Of course, I don't know any of the contract terms, but I hope that id could voluntarily separate. As it is, I'm very uncomfortable knowing that Zenimax are the ones who own the Doom, Wolfenstein and Quake IPs, as well as all of their engines, past and present.

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id was basically in it's own self-created mess of a dev hell before Zenimax took over. I think they deserved to be taken over. I've seen better run chimpanzee's tea parties. Most of what I have seen Zenimax try to do with id since the takeover simply makes sense; a lot more than id on their own did anyway.

id really hasn't done anything important for a very long time. I don't care that Zenimax own the Doom, Wolf and Quake IP. id wasn't doing anything worthwhile with them anyway.

Carmack "one of the most important people in the world". Snicker. Hyperbole or what? Sure, he's clever, a leader in gaming technology etc etc but, really?

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Sodaholic said:

It's partially Carmack's fault. He allowed Zenimax to acquire id, and I'm sure you know that a company cannot buy another without its consent, right? AFAIK, Carmack had no actual authority in the decision, but his superiors didn't want him to leave so they took his approval into account.

In retrospect, it was clearly a bad move. They should have just closed instead, rather than allow themselves to get harassed by a parent company and continue to produce mediocre content. Of course, I don't know any of the contract terms, but I hope that id could voluntarily separate. As it is, I'm very uncomfortable knowing that Zenimax are the ones who own the Doom, Wolfenstein and Quake IPs, as well as all of their engines, past and present.


I agree with you.
They should have closed the company right after Quake 4.

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J.B.R said:

I agree with you.
They should have closed the company right after Quake 4.

Thanks. I should note, though, that they didn't make Quake 4. As it is, id is more dysfunctional than it's ever been, the entire situation sucks.

I'd rather Doom have become an orphan work like Strife than in the hands of lawyers with itchy trigger fingers. Imagine if Zenimax decides to close id if/when they lose patience for their incompetence? Then they'd be extra free to do whatever they want with the IPs without any of the former id guys having a say. Even if the studio busts, their purchase was still a major gain at least for the powerful IPs.

Enjay said:

id really hasn't done anything important for a very long time. I don't care that Zenimax own the Doom, Wolf and Quake IP. id wasn't doing anything worthwhile with them anyway.

That's not why I find it disturbing. I don't care what id does with them, their efforts (or lack thereof) are uninteresting.

No, I'm concerned about an overzealous Zenimax trying to crack down on fan projects. It doesn't matter how much legal ground they actually have, starting litigation is alone enough to destroy the little guy before the courts even have a chance to figure out that Zenimax has no standing. Look at that ridiculous effort against Scrolls, you don't think they'd hesitate to fuck with PWAD authors if they felt like it? At least Mojang had the resources to defend themselves. Modders? Probably not as much.

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If zenimax would fuck with the pwads, sourceports, and sources in general they would be destroying themselves both on legal and moral grounds.

In short, they can not screw with them because ID released them with licenses and permission to mod many years before zenimax ever touched anything ID. They can not revoke this without taking down every site, link, database, and server on the planet with the data on them, and they would have to dig trough anything made legal by ID to try and revoke it.

If Zenimax would risk doing this they would suffer in the news, modern media, papers, books, magazines... and that company would become an outcast in the gaming industry.

And they already have the name and fame to be a company of 'liars', which might be true and might be false, who knows.

edit :
That mojang scrolls thing is just insane though. Nothing they are trying there could or should be legally groundable, as that game has nothing to do with any zenimax I.P. in any way possible.

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Sodaholic said:

Thanks. I should note, though, that they didn't make Quake 4. As it is, id is more dysfunctional than it's ever been, the entire situation sucks.

I'd rather Doom have become an orphan work like Strife than in the hands of lawyers with itchy trigger fingers. Imagine if Zenimax decides to close id if/when they lose patience for their incompetence? Then they'd be extra free to do whatever they want with the IPs without any of the former id guys having a say. Even if the studio busts, their purchase was still a major gain at least for the powerful IPs.

That's not why I find it disturbing. I don't care what id does with them, their efforts (or lack thereof) are uninteresting.

No, I'm concerned about an overzealous Zenimax trying to crack down on fan projects. It doesn't matter how much legal ground they actually have, starting litigation is alone enough to destroy the little guy before the courts even have a chance to figure out that Zenimax has no standing. Look at that ridiculous effort against Scrolls, you don't think they'd hesitate to fuck with PWAD authors if they felt like it? At least Mojang had the resources to defend themselves. Modders? Probably not as much.


TES modding is proof enough that they will leave PWADs alone, plus they have no reason to crack down on us. I think you are a bit paranoid.

If Id fucks up Doom 4 I'd like Bethesda to give the rights to Machinegames. They seem to know what they are doing. We'll have conclusive proof of that in 6 days (can't wait)

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FireFish said:

If zenimax would fuck with the pwads, sourceports, and sources in general they would be destroying themselves both on legal and moral grounds.

In short, they can not screw with them because ID released them with licenses and permission to mod many years before zenimax ever touched anything ID. They can not revoke this without taking down every site, link, database, and server on the planet with the data on them, and they would have to dig trough anything made legal by ID to try and revoke it.

And how does that stop them? If they feel like pulling some shit, they will, I doubt the longterm viability is in mind, only the short term gains. "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out." Remember that they once demanded that a shareware copy of the game playable in-browser be taken down before.

DooM_RO said:

TES modding is proof enough that they will leave PWADs alone, plus they have no reason to crack down on us. I think you are a bit paranoid.

I wouldn't put it past them, sharks have no rhyme or reason besides money. TES modding is generally on newer games and they have a financial incentive NOT to attack modders, since it boosts game sales. While the classic id games still sell, they're old and don't sell nearly as much as they used to, so making modders pay insane legal fees and "compensation" is a bigger financial incentive.

Although, yes, I am a paranoid fuck in general.

DooM_RO said:

If Id fucks up Doom 4 I'd like Bethesda to give the rights to Machinegames. They seem to know what they are doing. We'll have conclusive proof of that in 6 days (can't wait)

It's important to note that the new Wolfenstein release date is entirely unrelated to when the Doom beta program will start, always read the fine print. I frankly consider the beta incentive a scam, while they don't lie about the Doom beta start date being unrelated, they only mention it in the fine print and never mention it in the advertising.

Besides, if what those employee reviews are true about Doom 4's development, with constant reboots every few months, it's probably gonna be a while, and will probably suck anyway.

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Sodaholic said:

making modders pay insane legal fees and "compensation" is a bigger financial incentive.

No because they'd never see any penny. It wouldn't have any chance of working.

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DooM_RO said:

TES modding is proof enough that they will leave PWADs alone, plus they have no reason to crack down on us. I think you are a bit paranoid.

If Id fucks up Doom 4 I'd like Bethesda to give the rights to Machinegames. They seem to know what they are doing. We'll have conclusive proof of that in 6 days (can't wait)


IF? IF? IF? 10 year dev cycle. See Duke Nukem Forever. Maybe it hasn't been 10 years, maybe they started after Rage finished, but its already fucked. Article after article about setbacks. If the game takes more than 2 years, it better be open world with 2 years of expansion packs.

How's the Rage modding community?

Back to the topic at hand. John Carmack had the ability to steal the technology when it was just wires in a box. Palmer Luckey sent the only prototype to Carmack. That was the chance right there.

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geo said:

John Carmack had the ability to steal the technology when it was just wires in a box. Palmer Luckey sent the only prototype to Carmack. That was the chance right there.

Ah hah, now we got clues about the accusation against Carmack.

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The title is misleading.

Carmack is accused of giving Oculus code he created while being employed by ZeniMax, which allegedly made ZeniMax the owner of said code.

Hence he didn't "steal Oculus Rift tech", he "stole" id software tech for Oculus.

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Zenimax can't do anything to the preexisting modding community. The only thing they own is the franchise name and existing resource files. The code is forever ours and I'm sure they won't shift through countless PWADs to see if we have modified and copied existing resource files for our own use.

Or maybe they will and demand the archive be shutdown. I guess it depends if they are evil enough.

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J.B.R said:

Ah hah, now we got clues about the accusation against Carmack.


No this was 2+ years ago before the kickstarter. It was in Time Magazine what happened. Carmack could have stolen it from Palmer Luckney before the kickstarter.

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Technician said:

I'm sure they won't shift through countless PWADs to see if we have modified and copied existing resource files for our own use.

Or maybe they will and demand the archive be shutdown. I guess it depends if they are evil enough.

If they're of a mind to shut down the archive, they'll do so. It's just a matter of finding (or being pointed towards) a few wads that offend the tender sensibilities of Zenimax's legal team.

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