Modders can charge money for their works on steam

It'd be different if they were looking out for the modding community and offered a donation system for people to reward the mod creators with, but forcing people to pay for these mods up-fromt is a huge no-no. All Valve sees is money signs, especially if they're pulling 75% from the sales -- that right there tells you that they don't give a shit about the modding community, and another problem that will come up is since the modders only get 25% percent of their sales, they'll be over-charging to make up for the cut. So before too long we'll be seeing these $5-$10 mods that: may or may not work, be worth the time/money, or just a plain copy-paste of someones else's mod.

I don't see the point in ruining a system that's worked ever since the early days of PC gaming. You can reward these people by hanging up a donations bucket, but when you enforce a shit-system like this that so many people can abuse and cheat people out of their money, that's when people oppose it.

Reposting this from various posts of mine in the zdoom thread about it, as I feel there's some stuff on here still warranting discussion.


Post the first:
Saw a list on Reddit that sums up most of my issues with this pretty succinctly.


* Valve taking money from modders (75%!)
* No system in place to stop stolen mods
* No system in place to limit low-effort mods
* Overpriced "micro"transactions.
* No guarantee that the mod will be patched if an update happens.
* Modders lose rights to their mod after uploading.
* 24 hour return policy which does nothing to ensure that a mod is compatible. Errors may only become evident days after "purchase."
* Not even a minimum guarantee of Quality Assurance. At least developer-produced DLC is expected to have gone through QA.

Alongside the simple fact that this system, as implemented now, destroys any and all collaborative goodwill in the community [freaking SkyUI is already moving to have a paid version. You know, a mod so ubiquitous to skyrim modding that there's thousands of derivatives. Allllll fucked now.] and the only people who really win with this is Valve <and probably Bethesda, who I presume gets something out of that 75% cut>.

I'm okay with the idea of paid modding, but not at the cost of the community.

I'm also not really okay with the way it seems right now anyway, as, to give a doom community example...
if I made some really cool mod, uploaded it to idgames, then suddenly doom 2 has a steam workshop and I uploaded a newer, better version there behind a paywall....
yeah, do I just get that 25%? Do the people who make Slade, Gzdoom Builder, Gzdoom, and Ty Halderman just get nothing out of their parts? Because that's not really all that fair, and the presence of money for doom modding could have changed the outcome of those tools existing to begin with.

Mods tend to be a derivative, collaborative work. It's a bunch of people united over a game and what they can create with it. But you introduce steam workshop's paid modding system and suddenly it's a walled garden; no one would want to share their resources because some other schmuck will be profiting off of them while they don't see a dime, until they push their own paid mod.

The community loses.

Valve has not tackled these questions, or even thought of them as far as I can see.

And with how Greenlight turned out, I really don't feel like they should be the ones implementing this at all. They've not shown the capacity to manage blatant copyright thefts before without a lot of shouting about it; how are they going to deal with much subtler shit like stolen code and meshes?



Post the second:
Apparently, the refunds steam gives are just steam wallet cash.
Not sure how I feel about that, either. That basically means even the refunds are still in valve's bank accounts.



Post the third:
http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/
One of the mod authors who put up a paid mod <and had theirs taken away> speaking up about their experience.

Worth checking.






*disappears back to the realm of lurking*

Bouncy summed up everything wrong with this so perfectly. Additionally, comparing it to TNT.wad is pretty silly, if Bethesda saw a Skyrim mod they really liked and wanted to publish it and sell it for money, that would be one thing as it's hand picked, and one out of thousands. If anything, it would encorage existing modders to up their game in hopes that their mod will be the next hand picked one, and they could make some money doing something they love.

To allow everyone to charge for random mods that probably contain at least some form of stolen content is just fucking retarded beyond belief.. It causes so much more trouble than it's worth. Some high up executive saw this as an opportunity to make extra cash, and the idea was pushed out like a turd without any actual thought given to the implications of the decision. People do stupid things when they have dollar signs in their eyes..

hardcore_gamer said:

Ok, now I have heard (though I admit I just read this on another forum so I haven't confirmed it) that not only do they take 75%, but the money that you make only goes to your steam wallet, so all the money you make can only be spent to the steam store...

Forget everything good I said about idea. Valve can go fuck itself if this is true.

EDIT: Oh and it gets even better! If a mod doesn't make at least 400 bucks then the maker gets nothing and all the money goes to valve and the publisher.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...

Do you have a source for this that I can use?

Oh yeah, Goodbye free mods
Welcome vanilla games >_<

I foresee an EA times ten within a couple years. Steam will grow worse than EA, since now if (but not all cases, obviously) you want a game you're head-locked to download it, and you're required to have an internet connection once a month. Imagine no games released without Steam and a Modding community seated with assholes that'll buy whatever trash they can, greasing the Great butt-fuck dick we'll all bend over for because we're lazy, fat and dumb.

We're Knee-Deep in Slimy Corporate Bastards, fellas. Grab the napalm and shotguns.

MeetyourUnmaker said:

Do you have a source for this that I can use?

Your money only going to the steam wallet turned out to be false. But everything else I said is true.

hardcore_gamer said:

Your money only going to the steam wallet turned out to be false. But everything else I said is true.

it does go to the steam wallet only in regards to refunds. Read here.

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/refundpolicy

Refunds will be credited exclusively back to the Steam Wallet from which the original purchase was funded. For reasons of fraud prevention, your Steam Wallet will be credited for the transaction within two to three days from the time you submitted your refund request.

Which I personally find shady as hell, as that basically means even the refunded money is still in valve's pockets. In-store credit is not the same thing, even if it has a rough equivalent value.


Edit: And, on another wonderful note, this lovely gem was linked over in zdoom a while ago.

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1516854-midas-magic-spells-for-skyrim-xilverbulet-in-game-ads/

in-game ads encouraging people to buy the paid version of a mod? Lovely.

At this point, the damage is done. The skyrim modding community is basically shattered.

I was just on the Bethesda forums and apparently the guy who made Midas Magic - Spells for Skyrim included a % chance to pop up an add in the free version of the mod when you cast a spell thus prompting you to buy the paid version.

Doom Dude said:

I was just on the Bethesda forums and apparently the guy who made Midas Magic - Spells for Skyrim included a % chance to pop up an add in the free version of the mod when you cast a spell thus prompting you to buy the paid version.

So now not even video game mods will be free of pop-up advertisement?

Dear lord...

I don't know anything about this mod, but unless it is like the greatest thing ever, I would NEVER support a mod developer that puts pop-up advertisements into his mod.

In addition, I feel this whole "but mod authors have only been making their mods for free up until now because they have HAD to" bullshit that some people like Totalhalibut have been spewing so far is total crap. There are lots of people who create art just so that others can enjoy it. If somebody creates a super high-quality mods that charges for it, ok I am fine with that. But bullshit like pop-ups in mods is a great example of how to not respect your fans.

idgames should really implement a Pay to Play feature for the more exclusive wads.

Bouncy said:

* Valve taking money from modders (75%!)

So it is better that modders work for 0%, as is essentially the case in the majority of situations currently? A portion of the 75% goes to the developer of the game, but you could argue that developers already profit from the efforts of modders, because a large body of user-created content for a game can make it more attractive a purchase to players. As for Valve's portion, I guess this could just be construed as like a fee for using Steam as the platform for selling your work, as with ebay. I don't see why, in principle, it shouldn't be possible to sell mods off steam, given the game IP owner's consent. Certainly rival platforms to ensure there is price competition in the fee would be welcome however.

* No system in place to stop stolen mods

I'd argue this would work against Valve as much as modders. If mods can be monetised by being copied, rather than created then fewer mods would be created for sale at all. That would mean less revenue for Valve. I would therefore expect Valve to try to counter this, simply because they are profit-seeking and the incentive for them to do this aligns. And also there is copyright law. I don't accept that every single modder will be either unwilling, unsure or unable to do anything re this.

* No system in place to limit low-effort mods
* No guarantee that the mod will be patched if an update happens.
* Not even a minimum guarantee of Quality Assurance. At least developer-produced DLC is expected to have gone through QA.

I don't see how the situation is different for say indie games. You try to find out if the game is well-made and in a playable state worth buying by reading reviews or user comments, but ultimately the only way to know is to buy it and see. Even with mainstream games you may get a finished and professional working product, but there's absolutely no guarantee (or any way to guarantee) that you'll like it.

Look, the thing is that I have always seen mod making as art. What makes art different from other things is that it is something that is created mostly out of passion rather then the desire to make money. Throwing in a cash incentive risks destroying this.

Yes, I know that people need to pay their bills and all of that. But lets be honest here, most mods are not made by people who are spending every hour of their day working on their mods instead of earning a living. They are made by people in their free time.

The ONLY good thing I can imagine coming out of this is that the best high-profile mods won't be as popular as before because people will charge money for them, and thus people will probably be more willing to give other less know mod creators a chance simply because they don't charge for their mods, thus making it more easy for them to get their work into the public's eye.

hardcore_gamer said:

Look, the thing is that I have always seen mod making as art. What makes art different from other things is that it is something that is created mostly out of passion rather then the desire to make money. Throwing in a cash incentive risks destroying this.

I would say it would increase the incentive to make a great mod, due to the potential financial rewards. I don't see why this needs to be contrary to creating it for joy. You can work in a job for money and love it.

Yes, I know that people need to pay their bills and all of that. But lets be honest here, most mods are not made by people who are spending every hour of their day working on their mods instead of earning a living. They are made by people in their free time.

That's presupposing that only amateurs can or should make mods. I see no reason why that should have to be the case. Surely if mods can be good when made by people effectively working part-time, then a full-time professionalised modder could potentially make more, better and richer content.

Sui Generis said:

That's presupposing that only amateurs can or should make mods. I see no reason why that should have to be the case. Surely if mods can be good when made by people effectively working part-time, then a full-time professionalised modder could potentially make more, better and richer content.

Or, for a bit more effort, make their own game using the same talents and not give 75% of the profits to somebody else. Worst neo-capitalist scam I've heard of in a long time. I'd put it on par with rackets like the iTunes Store and wikia.

I suppose now we're going to see mods with non-commercial clauses in the derivative-works parts of their licenses - at least from mod authors who bother with any kind of license and want their stuff to be free.

The "Steam Service Providers" thing is interesting. People can direct 5% of Valve's cut of the mod revenue to other sites like Nexus. Just by agreeing to that option the Nexus guys are getting lots of flak.

scifista42 said:

That's why previews and reviews exist. Just like with games themselves. Or all kinds of commercial products, for that matter.

have you not seen the complete mess that entire section of the game industry is in? where a quarter are glorified paid advertisers, a quarter are sycophants, a quarter hate on anything that isnt a/b/c, and finally the rest possibly being levelheaded? there's already a great deal of information overload involving games, and this necessitates even more of it with paid mods.

if you have an idea that you think can make you and the IP holders money, you would go to that publisher or dev and show them your product / idea. if your idea lacked merit or they didn't feel like it could be to the standards of quality that they want to represent their company with, well, you'd go back to it as a hobby or use it as a learning experience. this is exactly the problem we're facing with steam greenlight as people have brought up.

there's too many games on greenlight, and there are way too many mods on skyrim for something like this to not be a huge mess.

Valve's cut is usually 30%. Why would it ever be 75%? Unless 45% is to Bethesda.

Is Valve doing paid mods for CS GO and TF2? Or do we still need to wait until they're official and in a crate?

nax said:

have you not seen the complete mess that entire section of the game industry is in? where a quarter are glorified paid advertisers, a quarter are sycophants, a quarter hate on anything that isnt a/b/c, and finally the rest possibly being levelheaded? there's already a great deal of information overload involving games, and this necessitates even more of it with paid mods.

I found a game recently with maybe 50 reviews. After looking at maybe 20 I stopped reading, because they all thanked the company for giving them a review copy.

I still have a Steam friend that says for the right amount of money, his 500 farm accounts can make 500 great reviews. He charges $5 per one line review and $20 for a one line review that has the game sit open for more than 15 minutes.

A day passes and 3500 messages later, Gaben is having a discussion about it on Reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/33uplp/mods_and_steam/

From quickly skimming through it, I think this summarizes Gaben perspective on Bethesda's decision:

"In general we are pretty reluctant to tell any developer that they have to do something or they can't do something. It just goes against our philosophy to be dictatorial.

With that caveat, we'd be happy to tell developers that we think they are being dumb, and that will sometimes help them reflect on it a bit."

Maes said:

Hmm...everyone seems to forget that Counter-Strike was initially nothing but a Half-Life mod, which got "promoted" to full standalone game status, eventually.

Wrong it started as a Navy Seals mod for Quake =D

geo said:

Valve's cut is usually 30%. Why would it ever be 75%? Unless 45% is to Bethesda.

45% IS for Bethesda, which they themselves decided. Essentially, the company, within which the Skyrim team no longer even exists apparently, is getting paid for absolutely nothing but efforts of other people, is getting paid almost twice more than those people who make it happen, and as is the case with many Bethesda games and Skyrim in particular, fucking Bethesda gets paid for others FIXING THEIR GAMES and making them fun. At least according to most people who only play stuff like Skyrim with mods. Thankfully I personally never really use mods anyway so I won't be losing anything, but I think that this whole thing is on the levels of scummy greed that are approaching, if not surpassing the current state with in-app purchases in games and DLCs and whatnot. Unrealistic as it is, I hope this idiotic desicion gets a lot of backlash, enough for it to be noticed by the ones in charge. This is outrageous.

Also hilarious to see people go "buuuh you want people to make mods for free?", I also saw some guy go "buuuh you're paying Valve for distribution and Bethesda for generously allowing us to make mods". As if all of those things weren't working perfecly before you were offered to start paying for them. Bethesda is already compensated when people buy their game, Steam is raking in shittons of money anyways and the workshop has existed without contributing to that for a long time. And if people wanna make videogame stuff full time, they should make their own games or go get a job in the industry. The ability to sell mods might very well slowly corrode and ruin the entire Skyrim modding community, and any game's if any others sign up for this.

Well 45% is a good take. Basically these modders have to decide.... work for $0 or work for 25%. Be happy with the 25%. Its only a matter of time before Valve instils a pay the modder X percentage. They've done it with their hats, but that's Valve's own stuff.

That's probably why Google doesn't tell anyone how much Youtube gets in revenue compared to what they pay the Youtubers. They just say your cut is 100% of your cut.

And I hear there was never much of a team anyway. Something like 1 person to design all of Oblivion's dungeons and 3 to design all of Skyrim's. I know I was extremely productive with Morrowind, but damn that's a lot of dungeons. I could churn out 3 - 5 a day that were pretty quality at least according to the reviews. Ones with actual quests took more time, a day or so.

I wonder how long until Valve becomes the villain, practically or perceptually. Their recent shortcomings with Greenlight and Steam Machines haven't been impressing anyone, and their apparent abandonment of the Half-Life series hasn't helped matters*.

I was never much a fan of Steam to begin with for many reasons, but I generally consider them harmless so long as they don't act anti-competitively. I was initially in favor of this "monetizing mods" thing just on principle, but learning the details paints a far shittier picture. Always treat these companies with suspicion, and back your stuff up and make the necessary tweaks to future-proof it should they turn evil or defunct.

-----

*Let's not kid ourselves, Half-Life is over. It was only ever meant to be standalone to get Valve on the map, and it's a surprise we even got Half-Life 2, let alone an incomplete episodic followup to account for all the missing detail when they decided that implementing their more in-depth and varied story was too much work.

Valve makes more money from free to play networked stuff, going as far to say that Portal 2 was the last of their "traditional" single-player games. They don't see any areas to innovate in, nor do they see dollar signs as large as other pursuits.

Everything popular is the villain. Insert quote from Dark Knight.

At least EA has shareholders to blame on why they're so evil.

Like every drug dealer, it was free at first, now they start charging.

geo said:

Basically these modders have to decide.... work for $0 or work for 25%. Be happy with the 25%.

It's not quite that simple I think. Right now, there's a lot of resentment for people who make their mods paid. Before, they could get donations, and people were actually donating. Now, nobody'll buy their stuff, and brand them as greedy douchebags - the mod community remembers these things, after all. Some people might start getting less money as a result of this, so it's not an elementary choice.

Of course, I don't actually have an idea if people are buying mods already or if noone's buying anything. I'm kinda assuming it's closer to the latter, given the outcry everywhere, but maybe the quiet majority is actually totally okay with this.

If they're able to make the mods work seamlessly, with little configuration; that's a big plus. More people would be willing to try out the mod, without having to literally utilize 4 software programs (Nexus mod manager, BOSS, TES5editor, mod organizer). Configure the settings within the game's data file. Go into the game, and edit out errors. Configure the script extender; ensure that FNIS is constantly updated. Ensure the load order is at the right specification Then you have to repeat most of that process every time you install a new mod. The more mods you pack on, the more complex the process gets. There's no fucking way, the average person is going to pay $24.17 for a mod bundle, and then have all of these chores to fulfill.(most people won't do it for free!) You could literally spend the whole day trying to configure your mod selection for skyrim or fallout 3, even when you know what you're doing. Does anyone know how the workshop installation works? If they reduced that process down to a simple install button, I would be impressed.

Bloodite Krypto said:

Wrong it started as a Navy Seals mod for Quake =D

There were already commercially sold mods for Quake in 1997 like Malice, Shrak, and that X-Men game. And apart from that you also had unofficial content packs for games being sold like Master Levels for Doom 2, and a bunch for Red Alert and Starcraft which included things like new maps/missions and editors. Actually, I have no idea if some of these just scavenged whatever they could find online and then sold it without getting authorization from the authors (much less compensation).

I tried going to the old Shrak website just for fun and holy shit, the whole thing is still up in its entirety.

http://www.shrak.com/shrak.html

Thanks for inadvertently mentioning addons people may have missed out on (go me! =D) now some people consider Malice be better then the two official expansions, let alone Quake II haha.