One Nation, NOT Under God, Indivisible

Katarhyne said:

There is no scientific basis for any religion - indeed, the very basis of religion is (granted, I'm twisting things around a bit but it still holds up) the lack of scientific basis; "faith".

I'm not religious either. However, I dont think the existence or nonexistence of God is something you can prove with any form of science or logic. Science defines the laws of the Universe and logic is surely a result of the laws of cause and effect which the universe appears to be subject to. God by definition would seem to me to be something beyond our Universe.

If some people wish to believe there is a God, then let them - I dont myself see how believing there is no God is any more wise or enlightened. Remember: there is no scientific proof that there is no God either.

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Katarhyne said:

I personally think an abolishment of all religion would cause more problems than it's worth. HOWEVER...

I do think that religion is the root of the largest majority of the world's problems, both now and all throughout history. There is no scientific basis for any religion - indeed, the very basis of religion is (granted, I'm twisting things around a bit but it still holds up) the lack of scientific basis; "faith".

Strictly abolishing it wouldn't solve anything; no, it must be erased in the thoughts and hearts and minds of people over multiple generations - I fear I will not see the removal of religion from the world in my time. But I cheer to think that my children or perhaps my children's children will; surely it will be a grand day for all mankind.



P.S. - I never stood up for the pledge of allegiance either.


Although I am also an atheist, and agree that the extinction of religion would eliminate a few problems, I find that ultimately man will find other reasons to fight. And quite quickly at that.
The main argument during this post is whether or not religion has been the cause of war. I agree with everyone who said that it is not, but that only proves the point above. I suppose that the real reasons people employ such violent means are the following:

a) We want what we dont have. Even if we dont want it.
b) It's hard to sympathize with/understand/accept the views of people who dont live anywhere near you.
c) It's just plain easier to exterminate somone who doesnt share your opinions rather than compromise.

There's is, of course, a major problem with this statement that I have made. I cant think of a damn way to fix it.

Maybe they should all play doom to calm their nerves.

I stood up but I never saluted. Mother insisted.

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IMJack said:

I think my sig says it all.


Actually, yeah it does. I should have quoted that instead.

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I really don't see how anyone can make the claim that religion does not cause wars directly. It's silly to say otherwise.

Note, however, that nowhere in this or my previous post do I say "All wars are caused by religion," nor do I say "Abolishing religion would end war (or hunger or poverty or strife or anything else)." I do, however, think it would speed scientific progress, and also remove the larger part of the bias in American society, for sure - I can't honestly speak for other cultures, because, well, I don't live in other cultures.

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War weeds out the idiots that will say "Yes Sir!" and walk into a machine gun :)

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i think religion should be totally removed from government, period. even as far as churchs or religous based org. cant give money to political parties.
i dont think this new ruleing will last with Bush and his republican hard liners in the way. personaly i always said the pledge but i left out 'under god' cause i think it does not belong there. also on a side note there is another major company scandal show the downfall of hardline capitalism. i am more of a socialist and i think both government and business in the US need reformed. hey i love it here but as i said we need prgress not the same old BS

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Religion isn't neccisarily the cause of all wars, etc. But, for pretty much every war, it has been the excuse. War pretty much happens just because someone in power decides that their power is not enough and they want more. And personaly, I think this is usualy due to a combination of testosterone and lack of self control.

You see, the real problem here is allowing someone in power to get total control over the people. If the people believe that this one person knows what is best all the time, they cease thinking for themselves and follow that person blindly. And here again is where religion comes back into the picture. Religion is used here as an excuse for this person to be in power. They could declare themselves the decendant of a god, or the chosen one of a god, or even just one who sticks to the god's rules all the time. If you can get the people to believe in a religion, its not hard to get the people to think that their leader is the voice of their god(s), and thus should be trusted exclusively.

You see, the real problem here is dogma. If you have many people believing the same thing, then you also have them all on a collective leash, and they will follow you and everything you say.

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religion might be the cause of certain things like wars, true.

But religion itself is not the root of all evil. I believe that people need religion. Religion is caused by... um, whatever it's caused, desire for a mental stability or something; the point is, you can't get rid of it. It is central to human nature. When people think they get rid of religion, they are in fact creating something that takes its place and plays the same role - an ideology, or something like that. And ideologies start wars just as easily as religions do.

Sure, some people can live without any kind of mental guidance. Most can't. People will always believe in something, because they need to. And some of them will always start wars because of their beliefs.

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I find your lack of faith disturbing.

There is clearly a lack of knowledge or understanding about religion here.

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heh, shoulda checked here before posting a poll on the subject. anyway, as far as the ruling in the court goes it is technically right. seperation of church and state is a fact. I grew up in a religious family and never saw a problem with it, when I was a CHILD.

I truly don't think that not standing and reciting something you don't believe in is disrespectful. remeber that one of the bill of right is freedom of expression. if I choose to express myself by not standing when, say the national anthem or god bless america plays, then thats my choice. if a hindu child choses not recite the pledge, then he/she should have that right.

I think that religion was the prototype for modern government. just replace god with the pres., pm, king, whatever. look at the us govt. three branches of govt., the holy trinity. the ten amendment that make up the bill of rights, the ten commandments. taxes, tithes. yeah, some nice parallels there.

it is nice to see so many opinons on this subject. just remeber, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. flame on.

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DooMBoy said:

Go ahead and flame me. I don't care. Just stating the facts here, the facts I believe.

Just stating the facts here, the facts I believe.

the facts I believe.

facts

Uh, right. Anyways...

I think that the United States government should go through all their official papers and replace the word "God," wherever it exists, with the word "Allah."

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under Allah, with liberty and justice for all.

One Dollar, In Allah We Trust.

Allah Bless America.

How many people would shit a brick over that? How fast would petitions and movements and letters to the editor start pouring in to get this abomination out of our government?

But it's EXACTLY THE SAME. Using the word "God" in any official government literature is no better and no worse than using "Allah," "Yahweh," "Buddha," or whatever else.

America would never accept those, so what right do they have to accept the former, when the Constitution gives the notion of "God" no special dispensation?

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Lament, people do need guidance, yes. It does not have to be 'spiritual'. Religions were created before man could explain things scientifically and mathematically, so that everyday man could understand why the things that happen, happen. All they do now is hinder unbiased thought.

GS-1719, who are you to say that there is "clearly a lack of knowledge or understanding about religion here"? Some of us, myself included, are quite knowledgable in the teachings of various mainstream and/or alternative religions. I myself recieved a fair amount of Catholic schooling.

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Katarhyne said:

I myself recieved a fair amount of Catholic schooling.


Kat was molested by a priest!

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Damn, it's funny how much people bash religions without knowing shit about it.
At least one half of science is religion, so if you believe in science AND claim that "RELEEGEON IS TEH EVILL!!!!!!111111" then something isn't right.

Even if all "spiritual" religions got abolished, there would still be ideologies and ideas. Ideas cannot be abolished (can ideologies?) and in the end, people's views, whether religious, ideological or whatever, are used as tools to encourage people to fight in a war.

The true cause of war is the lust for power and wealth. That was what drove Germany in World War 2, that is what drives the Israelians and Palestineans (both want a certain amount of land), and it is more than likely the cause of 911 as the Americans basically has a lot of interests (oil typically) in the Middle East.

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VileSlay said:

remeber that one of the bill of right is freedom of expression. if I choose to express myself by not standing when, say the national anthem or god bless america plays, then thats my choice.

You do not have total freedom of expression though do you? If you were to stand up in a crowded cinema and shout "FIRE" you would be prosecuted.

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How many of you atheists have ever said 'oh my god' or 'omg' or 'god, that's stupid' or 'jesus fucking christ'?

The pledge is not unconstitutional. At all. I don't care that it's being changed or removed, I care that we are paying officers in the judicial branch our taxes so they can argue over whether or not the pledge is an infringement on someone's right to sacrifice goats (which is obviously a pressing social and political issue which could have monumental impact on the lives of the U.S. citizenry).

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Not standing up for our National Anthem? that is wrong. ESPECIALLY in times like this.

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Doom II Guy said:

Not standing up for our National Anthem? that is wrong. ESPECIALLY in times like this.


Hey megatard, it's a little under a year after 9/11. You make me want to burn an American flag.

Standing up for the fucking anthem is not patriotism and refusing to stand up for it is not apathy or treason.

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Catholicism and other forms of Christianity do not properly integrate with Science and Mathematics. I went to a Catholic school for 5 friggin years. The Bible lacks direct scientific knowledge from God.

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Katarhyne said:

I personally think an abolishment of all religion would cause more problems than it's worth. HOWEVER...

I do think that religion is the root of the largest majority of the world's problems, both now and all throughout history. There is no scientific basis for any religion - indeed, the very basis of religion is (granted, I'm twisting things around a bit but it still holds up) the lack of scientific basis; "faith".

[/b]Hooray, the voice of reason. Heh, i only left this thread alone for 24 hours and it's spreading like wildfire.

Strictly abolishing it wouldn't solve anything; no, it must be erased in the thoughts and hearts and minds of people over multiple generations - I fear I will not see the removal of religion from the world in my time. But I cheer to think that my children or perhaps my children's children will; surely it will be a grand day for all mankind.

Very well said. Phase if out gradually, starting with the current generation of children and continue on until we're all able to view the world and its wonders with a clear mind and unbiased opinions (ie, 'ah, what a nice flower - God made that!' 'err, no, that was Brahman' etc)

P.S. - I never stood up for the pledge of allegiance either.

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Katarhyne said:

Lament, people do need guidance, yes. It does not have to be 'spiritual'. Religions were created before man could explain things scientifically and mathematically, so that everyday man could understand why the things that happen, happen. All they do now is hinder unbiased thought.

Science doesn't guide people. It just explains stuff. Whereas religion not only explains stuff (usually in a manner that is much easier for most people to understand), it tells you what to do.

When people try to take religion away, it is replaced by something else that also tells people what to do - usually ideology (this happened in Russia and China, for example). Which is just as bad, or sometimes worse.

I do not think that religion was only created to explain stuff. That would be too simple and neat, human nature doesn't work like that :)

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GS-1719 said:

Catholicism and other forms of Christianity do not properly integrate with Science and Mathematics. The Bible lacks direct scientific knowledge from God.


Timmy: 'Damn, i'm having trouble with this quadratic equasion - and my maths exam is tomorrow! God, please, which symbol should i work out first?
God: 'Erm... errr... hang on... yep... err, no... i had it there for a second. Oh sod it.
Timmy: 'God, you're crap!'

How long ago was the Bible written? How far have we advanced since then? The Holy Book was written with the intelligence of 2000 year old apostles that followed a drunken Jesuit who associated with whores.

I'm not saying Jesus Christ didn't exist. I'm just saying that he wasn't what modern Christians say he was.

Anyway, am i right to believe that God wouldn't allow any of his creations to die away? So, explain the dinosaurs again please?
Plus, Heaven was always in the sky. So, when we started venturing beyond the planet's boundaries, we know that heaven isn't there and, of course, is actually on a different astral plane. So is God a big fat liar, or is he making stuff up as he goes along?

Man, there are more holes in the bible than a lesbian orgy.

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ok, here's an idea! don't abolish religion, believing in some kind of faith is all some people have, but how about abolishing the right to express you faith to the degree that offends some people, causes wars(or the excuse for war) and the like, you can believe in what you want to believe but...you keep it to yourself, no condeming people for not believeing in the same as you!

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The Qu'ran (1400 yrs old) contains scientific knowledge undiscovered by western science until the last century. My point was that the Bible doesn't, and very few people are familiar with this fact.

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The Bible contains lots of scientific information
Alchemy: turning water into wine
Necromancy:raising the dead
Physics:walking on water
Good housekeeping:feeding 5,000 with 5 loaves and 2 fish
Teleporting:Jesus apearing to people after his death
It's endless :)

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People should always have the right to choose for better or for worse. Nobody has the right to take anything away from anybody. This goes for religion as well as anything else.

Vampirajay said:

but how about abolishing the right to express you faith to the degree that offends some people,

"Your God is Dead and No One Cares" T-shirts included in this?

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dsm said:

At least one half of science is religion, so if you believe in science AND claim that "RELEEGEON IS TEH EVILL!!!!!!111111" then something isn't right.

Oh, the good old "science is a religion" argument. People still use this? I was hoping it had been completely and utterly destroyed by decades of being constantly proven wrong.

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For me, the bottom line is that I'm never going to join a religion. They all claim to be the right one, yet each one contradicts the others. They can't possibly be all right, and theres no way of telling which one is real. So until god comes down and points out the real one, I'm staying out of the whole thing.

Its much better just to live your life however you want to.

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