Police Officers

Just want to echo the point about the "war on drugs" being literally the worst thing ever

Why on earth someone can get locked up for smoking weed, I'll never know. (Well I mean aside from archaic racist laws made in the 1920s.)

Some officers are good, others are bad (Like racists for instance)

That video, while I'm not denying the point it's making however it feels staged. So the cop will literally try his hardest to pretend there isn't a conflict in front of him (who look like 2 Arabs or one Arab and one Indian / Pakistani) but as soon as these same looking guys dress different he will walk a good distance to frisk them?

The cop seems too unprofessional. Not even sure why he is standing there in the first place doing nothing, unless there was a crime scene behind him or something.

Mechazawa said:

stuff

I can't see the link between drugs and the whole relationship between police and society being such an important factor. Other countries have drugs and gangs, but police and firearm related deaths are substantially lower?

Chezza said:

That video, while I'm not denying the point it's making however it feels staged. So the cop will literally try his hardest to pretend there isn't a conflict in front of him (who look like 2 Arabs or one Arab and one Indian / Pakistani) but as soon as these same looking guys dress different he will walk a good distance to frisk them?

The cop seems too unprofessional. Not even sure why he is standing there in the first place doing nothing, unless there was a crime scene behind him or something.

I think it was proven staged, though the bystander was real.

pritch said:

I can't see the link between drugs and the whole relationship between police and society being such an important factor. Other countries have drugs and gangs, but police and firearm related deaths are substantially lower?

No other country has the sheer amount of drugs that we have. Also, the source for much of the worlds drugs is in South America. Then, America is the only country, that I know of, that has a for profit prison system. The prison systems are private institutions that the government pays money to, to hold inmates. Prisons are owned by regular folk like you and me [but richer]. They also have the power [because democracy] to lobby and change the rules and lengths on how long and for what reason people are incarcerated. That means in basic terms that there is incentive to encourage high drug crime, which as a result encourages high weapon related crime [dealers have to protect their stash, etc] Drugs are distributed, by design, through gangs, like vice lords, gangsta disciples, mara salvatrutcha, and so on. They need weapons to be able to do that. Also, to give an idea of how big we are talking, in America alone there are estimated to be 1.4 million street gang members ( https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/gangs )

A lot of gangs act in very much the same way as the militias and 'terrorist' organizations around the world, it is basically the same shit. We tend to just change labels around when its closer to home for some reason. I believe it is because of dealing with those gangs that many police stations have such harsh policy towards dealing with people. The reason gangs are so prolific is because it is so profitable to have crime because prisons make money off that crime. More crime = more cash.

I think this goes without saying, but maybe it doesn't. America has the largest prison population in the world, something larger than I think the next few countries combined. Most of that is for weed, lol. Getting rid of for profit prisons could be a start. It is one less avenue to profit off crime. How ever, Americans will complain that their taxes are going up.

GoatLord said:

Demonizing cops as all bad, or glorifying them as all good, is dangerous thinking. Video media is capturing more corrupt cops than ever, and now everyone thinks every cop is a piece of shit. The "black lives matter" thing is just embarrassing. I'm part black, and I feel like the movement is saying, "Well, only part of you should be concerned with this." I'm really not into the tribalism that comes with racial pride. I have been told that the rash of cops killing black folks has been overstated, although it does happen. To me the whole white-cops-killing-black-people is part of an overarching problem that is much bigger, but people like to paint things very black-and-white, and if they're Americans, they love any opportunity to victimize black folks. Personally, I think both sides are fucked here, there's a lot of stupid opinions and ideas going around. It's a fucking mess.

I don't agree with your comment "and if they're Americans, they love any opportunity to victimize black folks."

That maybe so if they're racist or something, but I find often it's the other way around. A white person can't go on national Television and say this and that about their skin color, or be proud because they're white, or speak of the hardship they endured simply by chance because they were white and grew up in a poor neighborhood. If a white person said most, if not all the stuff, I see black people say on TV, they'd all be totally butt-raped by a media fire of severely ignorant people, of both colors. Especially momo social justice warriors. Black people can get away with a twin-tower sized bucket of ridiculous comments than a white person, especially on TV where reverse racism is out in the open, and ok, for some reason.

To me, it's all stupid. A child wouldn't know racism if the schools didn't suggest it. A child will not offer his basketball to a black kid, or vice-versa, simply because of skin color. Children don't squabble over such stupid things. A friend's a friend. I would've never even known what the N word meant, or racism even existed, had I not learned these things in school. I mean, 80% of "Rap" sales are white ... 80%!

To be a cop is an impossible job. You can't just give a human being a gun and power over people, expecting all of them to be in it for the right reasons. It's actually a pretty crazy ideal when you think about it.

Police officers aren't paid well enough for the extensive tests and training they have to be put through just to have a job where the majority of society disrespects them. No one gets pulled over and doesn't think to themselves "oh great what does this asshole want?"

There's a lot of finger pointing and "fuck the police" shouting that really shouldn't be warranted, and as a result police officers have to put their guard up as soon as they speak to a stranger even if the stranger has nothing against the officer.

Like most large nebulous entities, the people you interact with face to face are representing the entity itself, so they usually don't say or act on how they really feel about things, they do what they're supposed to do as part of their job. I've been pulled over plenty times for things like driving with an expired vehicle registration or state inspection, (by one if those all black undercover police vehicles that ill never really understand the true purpose of) I'm always really cooperative, but the officers still issue me tickets, even though they are reluctant to do so. I've even had officers say to me "there's a record that indicates that I pulled you over, so if I don't give you this ticket, and your pulled over again, that'll show that I let you drive away without me issuing a ticket and I can get in serious trouble and possibly lose my job"

However, on the flip side, I had my house broken into 3 months ago and just recently I've been informed that the hearing for the burglar is in late November. The police had to collect all the evidence they possibly could in order to incriminate him. So for all this time I had to live under the uncertainty that this guy might try to get in my house again.

So in short, police officers themselves aren't as bad as the judicial system itself.

Flesh420 said:

If a white person said most, if not all the stuff, I see black people say on TV,

Try watching Fox News for a whole day. You'll hear all about the lifelong struggles of affluent while folks.

A child wouldn't know racism if the schools didn't suggest it.

Well, that explains slavery and segregation. Those Alabama schools must have been teaching about racism 24/7!

I'll read through all of this later on today. I'm very pleased with the level of participation in this thread and want to thank everyone involved.

Just in case people didn't read it, my official stance is that it is ignorant to say all cops are good or bad.

In a given year, we hear about dozens of instances where cols use excessive force. That's not going to be nearly all of the cases. But how many cases do you think there actually are?

The fact is, most cops are not monsters. The problem is that when you don't know someone, you identify them by their uniform. So when one uniform acts like a shithead, all uniforms start looking the same.

It is true. One bad apple spoils the bunch. One crooked cop is one crooked cop too many. They need to be snuffed out. But attacking the character of all cops is not the answer. Now THAT'S a lynch mob mentality.

40oz said:

So in short, police officers themselves aren't as bad as the judicial system itself.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Hating is easy. Many today participate in hate groups both small and large and do not even realize it.

Being a cop is a shitty job. You get to deal with the worst people and someone may try to kill you. Even when they're not you get to deal with someone else's problems too big for them to handle. Then you wake up and do it all again.

Flesh420 said:

That maybe so if they're racist or something, but I find often it's the other way around. A white person can't go on national Television and say this and that about their skin color, or be proud because they're white, or speak of the hardship they endured simply by chance because they were white and grew up in a poor neighborhood.

I don't think people mocking you for having the point fly so far over your head that it's in another dimensional plane is remotely racist.

People really like to overestimate how fair and equal America really is. More than some parts of the world? Sure, but that's not really relevant to those who have to live in the shoes of the underprivileged. They still have to deal with significant amounts of racism on a daily basis, whether it be subtle or outright dangerous.

There is basically no reason to be proud of being white, and most of what few reasons there are are basically indirect racism. There's a reason why you usually only hear it coming from white supremacists. The only other real reasons are usually just to be contrary. On the other hand, being proud of being a race that has to deal with a bunch of shit all the time makes a lot of sense, as it shows that despite all the problems one's race bring you, you're still proud of your heritage and culture and such.

It's sort of the same thing as AllLivesMatter. Why, yes, they do, but that's not the point. BlackLivesMatter pretty much became a thing because a huge percentage of blacks in America were dying daily, and nobody was talking about that, which was especially crazy since so many were otherwise normal citizens being gunned down by the law. It was bringing up an issue that severely needed to be brought up and absolutely deserved outcry. AllLivesMatter really did nothing but try to turn it around on the people who want those problems fixed, all while accomplishing nothing of any importance.

They do a job that nobody else wants to do. And that's the problem. That leaves us with a big percentage of lunk-heads to protect us and enforce the law. It's easy to watch police brutality compilations on the internet and get all riled up. There are good reasons for that, but lawlessness is not a viable alternative answer to their transgressions.

Law enforcement is inherently good... but it needs better people and better training.

Arctangent said:

and nobody was talking about that,

And that is the lie that was perpetuated that caused AllLivesMatter to happen.

Because it isn't "not talked about", you can't go five pages in any modern American history book and not see something about how white people are bad because they did stuff to blacks. No American on earth is unaware of what is going on to blacks. You have a whole month dedicated to remembering everything blacks go through, to say that any American is 'unaware' is downright dishonest.

What goes on to blacks in America does so not because of lack of awareness, everybody knows. It goes on because nobody cares. All oppression occurs within a society because the rest of that society doesn't care. And why should they? How does it benefit others to care about your situation? The resistance, the 'AllLivesMatter' thing was a response to the idea that others should be forced to care about what happens to black people in America, as if 'you' get to decide what people should care about or be outraged about. People were protesting with rage and interrupting people who flat out don't care, and whom the black community cannot give any reason to care. Yet, still places some kind of obligation to do something on those people who don't care.

It is like if I randomly show up to your house and yell at you, spam you, interrupt your day, and tell you it is your job to care and to do something about my inability to function in society in some way because of what your great grandad might have done.

People in America seem to have this idea of 'we are all one' and that some how we all have to have concern over everybody elses problems. That idea alone causes most of the strife in this country I would suspect. The reality is people don't have to care or do anything about your problems, and most of the world feels the same. As well, most of the world will not actually do anything, that is why oppression is rampant. Why should America be any different?

Mechazawa said:

Y'know, I wonder if I'm really as much of a pessimist as I think I am.

An optomist would know for sure.

I admit I am pretty cynical. I am a sociologist, in one of my classes we had a measure of cynicism, I scored the highest in the class. But, I prefer to think that people are indifferent and just don't care, than to think that everyone is racist.

Put almost anyone in a uniform and give them a gun, and they're gonna abuse their powers at some point. I mean, imagine you're out on patrol and you see a couple of young men walking down the street wearing My Little Pony t-shirts.. Are you seriously telling me you wouldn't blow their brony heads off right there and then? C'mon!

Mechazawa said:

I admit I am pretty cynical. I am a sociologist, in one of my classes we had a measure of cynicism, I scored the highest in the class. But, I prefer to think that people are indifferent and just don't care, than to think that everyone is racist.

To be fair, those aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact both can be the cause of the other.

Though I like to think a lot of people are fully capable of caring once properly informed, and that's what I hope such efforts achieve. They don't actually have to get all those people to act, just to care - because that might lead to acting later on, but will usually at least make them more supportive for fixing the issues. There are definitely people who wouldn't care about that stuff, no matter what, but making those people less self-centered isn't exactly the point, just a nice bonus if it does end up happening.

Some people would probably say that just caring isn't enough. And in the big picture, it really isn't. But forcing people to act will result in far, far more defiance, while directing their emotions towards a cause can lead to some dramatic changes, even if they're not immediate.

Dave The Daring said:

Put almost anyone in a uniform and give them a gun, and they're gonna abuse their powers at some point. I mean, imagine you're out on patrol and you see a couple of young men walking down the street wearing My Little Pony t-shirts.. Are you seriously telling me you wouldn't blow their brony heads off right there and then? C'mon!

... Not really, no. I'd like to hope most people don't become psychopathic when totally innocuous interests are brought to light. And while there are a tremendous amount of people with not so innocuous interests in the show, t-shirts are not exactly any sort of evidence that they're those kinds of fans.

Arctangent said:

... Not really, no. I'd like to hope most people don't become psychopathic when totally innocuous interests are brought to light. And while there are a tremendous amount of people with not so innocuous interests in the show, t-shirts are not exactly any sort of evidence that they're those kinds of fans.

Pfft, brony lover.

Dave The Daring said:

Pfft, brony lover.

He is a Clony, Closet Brony.

Arctangent said:

To be fair, those aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact both can be the cause of the other.

Though I like to think a lot of people are fully capable of caring once properly informed, and that's what I hope such efforts achieve. They don't actually have to get all those people to act, just to care - because that might lead to acting later on, but will usually at least make them more supportive for fixing the issues. There are definitely people who wouldn't care about that stuff, no matter what, but making those people less self-centered isn't exactly the point, just a nice bonus if it does end up happening.

Some people would probably say that just caring isn't enough. And in the big picture, it really isn't. But forcing people to act will result in far, far more defiance, while directing their emotions towards a cause can lead to some dramatic changes, even if they're not immediate.

My theory is one of exchange (exchange theory?). People need some benefit to caring. Because changing society requires energy and I think the vast majority will not spend energy for free. What do whites get out of caring about black issues? How are (white) individuals lives progressed through helping others (blacks)? I think exchange is always a factor, even in the most agape relationships, whether its a relationship between two individuals or two groups. Spending energy without a return is generally something to be avoided. A vague idea of a better society is not exactly a return, and in practice it has never worked.

I could go one further and say that genocide is the result of one group not only getting no benefit from another, but actively being burdened by another. To get an idea of where this black-white issue in America can go, look up the 1984 anti-Sikh riots.

Dave The Daring said:

Put almost anyone in a uniform and give them a gun, and they're gonna abuse their powers at some point. I mean, imagine you're out on patrol and you see a couple of young men walking down the street wearing My Little Pony t-shirts.. Are you seriously telling me you wouldn't blow their brony heads off right there and then? C'mon!

This gave me a hearty laugh

Mechazawa said:

I could go one further and say that genocide is the result of one group not only getting no benefit from another, but actively being burdened by another. To get an idea of where this black-white issue in America can go, look up the 1984 anti-Sikh riots.

So what you're saying here is that the Jews... were nothing but a burden to the Germans?

never talk to cops

dew said:

So what you're saying here is that the Jews... were nothing but a burden to the Germans?

Not just to the Germans but to humanity in general. The Germans were the only ones smart enough to try and do something about it. Jews are like a black hole sucking in everyone else's wealth and good Christian women.

You're invoking Godwin's law? C'mon Dew, as a mod you can do better than that.

SYS said:

You're invoking Godwin's law? C'mon Dew, as a mod you can do better than that.

Yes, let's leave the Nazis out of our conversations about genocide.

SYS said:

You're invoking Godwin's law? C'mon Dew, as a mod you can do better than that.

Oh, so we're talking about all the other holocausts and Godwin's law wasn't invoked already. Silly me.