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Kontra Kommando

Daesh [ISIS] Murders Crowd of People in France

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Zed said:

You don't need religion for that. You need education and culture.

I wasn't saying you needed religion. I'm saying it's possible to be religious and not be a raging maniac in a truck at the same time.

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Sorry but you can't teach your way out of people choosing to commit horrific acts. There are people who graduated college with a PhD that still ended up murdering or stealing or raping or what have you. Also, without some kind of moral law giver that's beyond yourself, you can't justify morality because morality would just be opinion rather than objective truth. Many people have different ideas of what true morality is so which one is superior? You can't say it's just society at large that decides, unless Slavery in the US used to be okay just because it was an accepted practice. If morality is just human opinion, then it's just you trying to force your opinion on everyone else.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Sorry but you can't teach your way out of people choosing to commit horrific acts. There are people who graduated college with a PhD that still ended up murdering or stealing or raping or what have you. Also, without some kind of moral law giver that's beyond yourself, you can't justify morality because morality would just be opinion rather than objective truth. Many people have different ideas of what true morality is so which one is superior? You can't say it's just society at large that decides, unless Slavery in the US used to be okay just because it was an accepted practice. If morality is just human opinion, then it's just you trying to force your opinion on everyone else.


You don't need religion for morality. Religion is a faith based belief system. You have faith that God said that X is right and Y is wrong. Someone doesn't need God to have just as much faith that X is right and Y is wrong. Until someone can objectively prove the existence of a divine being that creates objective laws of morality it will continue to be just as faith based and "subjective" as the moral compass of a non-religious person. Believing in an objective rule passed down by the creator of the Universe makes it easier for some people to justify their morality but it doesn't make it necessary.

Furthermore we just got done talking about all the terrible crap people have done in the name of religion so clearly it doesn't inherently give people morality or people wouldn't do immoral acts in the name of it. That's not even talking about all the contradictory crap where religion can be used to justify immoral behavior towards another human being outside the 'kill them' realm of radicalism.

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VonHootie02 said:

I wasn't saying you needed religion. I'm saying it's possible to be religious and not be a raging maniac in a truck at the same time.


true but no, it's just not possible For them as that's actually the religion of piece.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Also, without some kind of moral law giver that's beyond yourself, you can't justify morality because morality would just be opinion rather than objective truth. Many people have different ideas of what true morality is so which one is superior?

There are also many religions with differing and incompatible ideas of morality, though, so that still doesn't give us an objective standard.

If morality is just human opinion, then it's just you trying to force your opinion on everyone else.

If you say morality can't be justified without religion, then isn't that you trying to force your religion on everyone else? A moral code espoused in religious terms is still a moral code that a human decided to follow based on what they personally understood to be right.

I've become very wary of those who suggest that morality can't exist or be justified without religion. Do you think that you or your friends would be out committing horrible crimes if not for your religion telling you otherwise?

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And I'm becoming wary of people who misrepresent what I'm saying.

I didn't say, without God, Mike would go steal a candy bar.

I'm saying, without God, Mike can't explain why stealing a candy bar is morally wrong in an objective manner, all he can say is that he thinks it's wrong.

Either morality comes from a higher power or it's just an opinion and means nothing.

Also, essel, I'm curious as to why it's suddenly okay to blame all of religion for this attack? I thought this was the very thing the mods wanted to avoid.

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MetroidJunkie said:

And I'm becoming wary of people who misrepresent what I'm saying.

I didn't say, without God, Mike would go steal a candy bar.

I'm saying, without God, Mike can't explain why stealing a candy bar is morally wrong in an objective manner, all he can say is that he thinks it's wrong.

Either morality comes from a higher power or it's just an opinion and means nothing.


No I understood what you're saying. It's just wrong. Until someone can objectively proof the existence of God and that X religion (because there are a bunch of religion each with different morals) is in fact the word of God, there is no objectivity behind religious morality either.

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I never said I couldn't but this is hardly the thread for me to be arguing about the existence of God, and I'm actually disappointed with myself for being complacent in allowing it to get this far. dethtoll's the one that started all of this by saying religion can't be peaceful, essentially blaming all religious faith for this attack.

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MetroidJunkie said:

I'm saying, without God, Mike can't explain why stealing a candy bar is morally wrong in an objective manner, all he can say is that he thinks it's wrong.


What the fuck is this horseshit?

Mike won't go steal that candy bar because it's a violation of the shopkeeper's rights, would cost them money, and it is wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you, because it is a violation of trust, and if everyone stole, trust between everyone would erode -- and thus society would fail. Our shared moral and legal and ethical codes were built on hundreds of years of building a functional society.

If you need religion to be able to tell right from wrong then you lack empathy.

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Says the guy who basically tried to compare literally all religious values to this attack by saying religion can't be peaceful.

For that matter, selfishness is in our human nature, we tend to seek self gratification. If you think people can't suppress their empathy for self benefit, then you should look up crime statistics. Tons of people will commit crimes without any care for society if they think they can get away with it because self justification.

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dethtoll said:

a functional society.

That religion is deeply ingrained in.

Now I know what you're thinking: "so now you're saying that religion is the cause of immoral actions as well?" Sure. Look at the two-sided coin.

Does this mean that all good and evil comes from religion? No. Human nature is still a thing. I'm saying that some morals, which are interpreted in different ways, come from it.

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Morality largely has a basis in practicality. It keeps society running smoothly. "Higher powers" have nothing to do with it.

VonHootie02 said:

I'm saying that some morals, which are interpreted in different ways, come from it.

False. They were already values in society, religions merely codified it.

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Sodaholic said:

False. They were already values in society, religions merely codified it.

All right, true.

I'm done here. I feel bad for the friends and family of the people that lost their lives in such an unfair way.

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MetroidJunkie said:

Says the guy who basically tried to compare literally all religious values to this attack by saying religion can't be peaceful.


It's really funny to me how you got all that out of 7 words (while also completely ignoring the rest of my sentence, in which I explicitly state that the majority of Muslims just want to get on with their lives.) I didn't say "literally all religious values" you moron, particularly when many religious values are shared with secular society. "Thou shalt not steal," anyone? Try and actually think for once.

Here, let me help you: Peace is incompatible with the concept of inequality of people. History provides countless proofs of this. And religion is like any other form of tribalism -- it eventually devolves into "us" vs "them," often encouraged by the religion itself. The result is that not only do separate religions fight each other, but they fight among themselves over interpretation. Sometimes these fights evolve into violence. It's like comic book fandom (complete with confusing, self-contradictory backstories), but with more beheadings. Try as I might, I just don't see comic book fans going to war over Superman's backstory getting rewritten.

The point though is that this doesn't necessarily reflect on the average religious person, because most people have the empathy required to not fucking murder someone for believing in the wrong god or believing in a god the wrong way. But it's important to remember that this doesn't take away from the many, many smaller evils that religions perpetuate, like the subjugation of women.

MetroidJunkie said:

For that matter, selfishness is in our human nature, we tend to seek self gratification. If you think people can't suppress their empathy for self benefit, then you should look up crime statistics. Tons of people will commit crimes without any care for society if they think they can get away with it because self justification.


Nice job missing the point. Yes you are correct that selfishness is in our nature, but WE ARE NOT ANIMALS. We aren't bound by things like instinct and base desire when we have the consciousness and the will to aspire to something greater. Our society forbids stealing because stealing from others is wrong for the reasons I described earlier. Do people still steal? Sure -- but our societal structure is designed to punish theft and stealing is viewed as necessarily a Bad Thing.

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dethtoll said:

WE ARE NOT ANIMALS. We aren't bound by things like instinct and base desire when we have the consciousness and the will to aspire to something greater.


Hold on, what? While I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, this is complete nonsense. Of course we are animals (we are actually very weird animals when you think about it...).

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Mechazawa said:

The author of the bible is anonymous as well.

lol


I enjoy the idea that all of the Bible -- OT, NT, Apocrypha, etc. -- was written by a single author.


The Bible is actually a collection of separate documents, written by different people at different times for different reasons. The NT especially isn't anonymous, we know who of James, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Paul, John and Ringo wrote which parts. Of course, there is debate about whether these authors were actually who tradition says they were.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

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Okay, I poorly phrased that, but my point is that we're not just shaved apes. We're better than that, and we should aspire to even more. It's why excuses like "it's just human nature" just ring as bullshit to me, especially when trying to justify something like for example rape. We're not bound by our natures.

----

edit: dammit gez get out of the way

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dethtoll said:

WE ARE NOT ANIMALS.


We actually are animals. Quite literally.

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MetroidJunkie said:

For that matter, selfishness is in our human nature, we tend to seek self gratification. If you think people can't suppress their empathy for self benefit, then you should look up crime statistics. Tons of people will commit crimes without any care for society if they think they can get away with it because self justification.

And altruism is actually in our genes as well, it is actually necessary for our survival as a herd. We don't need to be told by God what to do to strive as a society, it's literally in our blood. Criminals are outliers for a reason, they prey on the majority for their immediate benefit, but most of us know that we'll be stronger if the herd is stronger - and we contribute to it. There are animals that do the same and they don't need any petty God codifying what to do and don't.

Evolution is stronger and more mysterious than God could ever be.

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Lol, the bibles authorship is anonymous. Yes there are names attached to different parts but no Christian scholars will honestly claim they know who these people are. The best evidence suggestions the bible was invented at the council of nicea. But, I'm not gonna argue on this. Each has their own view of the world. G'Day all.

Wait.. Nice france is attacked...bible invented at Nicea.. O____O

Halflife 3 confirmed.

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That sounds all flowery and good, dew, but selfishness is easier than altruism and most people think they're invisible.

How many times have you had to stop someone and ask if they thought they were smooth? From a former manager: too often

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Mechazawa said:

Wait.. Nice france is attacked...bible invented at Nicea.. O____O


Nice is not the same as Nicaea.

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Mechazawa said:

Lol, the bibles authorship is anonymous. Yes there are names attached to different parts but no Christian scholars will honestly claim they know who these people are. The best evidence suggestions the bible was invented at the council of nicea. But, I'm not gonna argue on this. Each has their own view of the world. G'Day all.

Nnnnope, that's a very mangled attempt to simplify history. The Nicaean council did not establish the Bible as we know it today, its main agenda was establishing the Godhood of Jesus Christ (and whether he was one with his Holy Father). The Bible was actually solidified even later (by the end of the 4th century), but all the texts were already written long before that - and their authors are considered to be known. The councils were doing more of an editor's job, picking the "right" ones into the finalized version of the Book.

It is absolutely preposterous to even suggest that the Bible was somehow "invented" at one of the councils, the process was arduous and well documented.

Mechazawa said:

Wait.. Nice france is attacked...bible invented at Nicea.. O____O

Nice conspiracy there. Except the French city is pronounced "nees" and the Turkish one "ni-khaya".

Fonze said:

That sounds all flowery and good, dew, but selfishness is easier than altruism and most people think they're invisible.

Never would I dare to insinuate otherwise! However it is an actual fact that as a species we are altruistic overall. Predatory beasts can be completely selfish, because it fits their survival pattern, but social species as a whole cannot afford selfishness. But keep this in perspective, I'm not saying it's in our nature to hug foreign people and invite them into our houses or whatever. It is in the fact that we're not territorial, we respect our mutual roles in the society, we don't murder each other, because we know it'd weaken the herd. The very basic stuff we take for absolutely granted - at least until some psycho criminal goes and breaks it, because it's so easy to abuse the trust of the collective, right? The same applies to the oh-so successful businessmen, in fact. We admire them for "achieving success", but if all of us applied the same behaviour they do, the society would crumble and man would go for his brethren's throat like wolves establishing dominance or whatever. I hope that's clearer.

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Mechazawa said:

The best evidence suggestions the bible was invented at the council of nicea.

Uh, no.

The entire Old Testament, for example, has much in common with the Hebrew Bible, so are you going to try to argue that Judaism waited for Christianity to exist before it was created?

The first council of Nicaea was about establishing the Nicene Creed -- trying to figure out how the Trinity works, how do you have a God made of three parts, and each part is different, and each part is still the whole? What it was not about : the Bible.

The second council of Nicaea was about arguing that icons are not a form of idolatry. What it was not about : the Bible.

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As much as I find the history of the Bible interesting (really), what on Earth is the discussion doing here? I think I missed something.

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dethtoll said:

Here, let me help you: Peace is incompatible with the concept of inequality of people. History provides countless proofs of this.


I hope you realize you just destroyed your own argument because Christianity was one of the first to say that we're all equal under God. Behaviors may not be equal (Nobody in their right mind would say otherwise) but the faith holds that we're all flawed and fall short and need a savior, it doesn't place one above the other. Our standard is Christ, not other people. Sorry you fail to see this, you treat it as though people abusing this religion for their own selfish gain represent its core beliefs, it no more represents Christianity than Joseph Stalin represents Atheism.

Clonehunter, you can thank this guy right here for conflating the attack with all religion and saying religion can't be peaceful.

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For me personally the concept of "treat others the way you wish to be treated" is far more than enough to keep me morally grounded. I wouldn't want to be raped, so I don't rape. I wouldn't want to be killed, so I don't kill. I mean I guess some people need a complex code (that is really really antiquated by the way) to find their morality, or maybe they need to fear a God or whatever, but for me personally, none of that shit applies.

I mean people can believe what they want, but trying to legislate a theological code just because it's written in some particular holy text regardless of whether or not the majority wants it is dead wrong. We have democracy so that society can essentially choose it's own rules via elected representatives, not to just brainlessly follow some dogma. That's just my 2c.

Fonze said:

selfishness is easier than altruism

Teaching people that selfishness is wrong because it destroys the fabric of society rather than "it's wrong because God says so" seems more logical to me personally. Rather than just having this unknown boogeyman of fear, we can actually demonstrate how selfish behavior is destroying the foundation from under us.

You don't need a fear of God to realize this. Sure, it helps some people, and that's fine, but when it comes to legislation, it should be about what the majority sees fit more so than it should be about adhering to some particular religious code.

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Clonehunter said:

As much as I find the history of the Bible interesting (really), what on Earth is the discussion doing here? I think I missed something.


I think it's not so much about the Bible itself, it's more about religion in general. It's interesting to see people trying to pass this as being "just" a mentally ill person, when it is actually possible this is a terrorist attack. That is a real possibility, hence the religion discussion I think.

Now, I know it's too early to talk about this attack as a terrorist attack or any other type of attack for that matter, there's really no confirmation about it at the moment, but in the case of the Orlando attack, there was clearly a religious factor (as with most of the similar / recent attacks in other places). I mean, there is clearly a problem with religious people going on killing sprees, that is a fact. And I think this will turn out to be another case of a "loner" member of ISIS / daesh, who took inspiration in some way from them.

And for the record, there are also fucking lunatics outside of Islam, just remember this worthless piece of shit.

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To say "religion causes people to be crazy" is false association, it's more that crazy people find a religion to attach themselves to. The problem arises with the fact that, when you actually read the texts, there are plenty of abhorrent things condoned alongside the good things condoned, and subsequently you get people pointing out that "Hey, if you read this part of their religious text, what he did is actually technically correct according to the book!"

This is not an opinion, it is an observation.

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