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LexiMax

Let's talk about Overwatch

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I for one really love the art style of Overwatch.
I guess the gritty art style of Doom and Quake has changed the outlook on cute characters in this forums.

Im really interested in buying this game in the future.

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It's less the art style and more the presentation of it. Everything has this hyper gloss to it and coupled with the endless one-liners it comes across as this really, really forced attempt to come across as cool and fun.

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I also dont the get the TF2 comparison. Its not like Team Fortress created team based MP FPS.
We might as well compare Overwatch to Doom 2016 with the amount of colors on the maps.

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jizzmaster9 said:

I also dont the get the TF2 comparison. Its not like Team Fortress created team based MP FPS.

They're both team-based and both have cartoon graphics. How many other cartoony team-based FPSs have you come across? Imo, comparison to TF2 is fair.

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Patch just got out. D.Va seems like a real class now. Dunno about Ana yet if she's stronk or weak. McCree seems balanced now. Zenyatta probably finds his place too.

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I'm eye balling it, I would love a game that actually stomps out hackers. I would really enjoy another skilled game to play but I just dont know, blizzard makes me nervous anymore with they sole focus being on addictive psychological tricks in their games. Hearth stone was fun and all but complete shit in skill ceiling.

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Akira_98 said:

Anyways, I don't hate the game entirely (in fact, I'd say it's at least good), but I have no hope for it in the future. Between most of WoW's expansion, early Diablo 3, and Hearthstone's ridiculousness, I don't have faith in Blizzard to fix issues as they become apparently.


I have also been extremely wary of Blizzard, but surprisingly, much of the hubris which permeates Blizzard's other games seems to be gone here. They listen to the community and are very receptive to feedback, but more importantly don't simply submit to the communities every whim - for example, instead of just using Stopwatch for competitive, they kept experimenting until they stumbled upon the time bank system which will be coming to all gamemodes in season 2.

I think the game is in good hands, and honestly even if a meteor hits the dev team and the game ends up a disaster a year from now I've more than gotten my $40 worth out of it.

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Rated Teen and FPS does not compute. TF2 used a fun art style but still had all the gore you'd expect from a shooter. If I can't gib Tracer and have her glutes fly across the map, I'm not interested.

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ChekaAgent said:

They're both team-based and both have cartoon graphics. How many other cartoony team-based FPSs have you come across? Imo, comparison to TF2 is fair.

Im still not buying the TF2 comparison.
I guess I just dont see the similarities.

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jazzmaster9 said:

Im still not buying the TF2 comparison.
I guess I just dont see the similarities.

They're not very similar, besides the fact that they're team-based, use a stylized art style, and some abilities and weapons are pretty obviously derived from TF2.

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Let's talk about Overwatch, a 60$ AAA game with microtransactions, and a ridiculously unrewarding reward system.

I say: Thank you, but no thanks...

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They're not even proper microtransactions. You can't buy the in-game currency or any of the actual cosmetics with real money; you can only get lootcrates ... which drop every time your gain an account level. Which is pretty often.

So, yeah, you can dump money into getting your random cosmetic drops faster, but that's literally it.

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rileymartin said:

Rated Teen and FPS does not compute. TF2 used a fun art style but still had all the gore you'd expect from a shooter. If I can't gib Tracer and have her glutes fly across the map, I'm not interested.


Chex Quest has some things to say to you

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TheMightyHeracross said:

It's only $60 on consoles. On PC it's just $40.

And aren't all microtransactions cosmetic?
You treat it like it's pay 2 win.


Cosmetic or not doesn't matter when I pay full-prize upfront.

I paid the whole thing, I want all the content at my disposal.

I like to customize my character's looks, it's fun.

The aesthetics are built into the game, they're part of the experience.

Denying those, by putting them behind a grind or paywall, is just shit.

For some cosmetics don't matter, for some they do. The latter are paying the bills.

And even if you get those crates regularly, there's a LOT of stuff that you could get out of these, and you can even get doubles. I call BS on this.

Arctangent said:

So, yeah, you can dump money into getting your random cosmetic drops faster, but that's literally it.


This is the actual fuck-up Blizzard made. I'd rather lay down 5$, and get what I care about, instead of buying a random amount of crates to simulate gaining account levels.

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All I'm taking from that post is that you really, really hate Nintendo games.

Especially stuff like Smash Bros.

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Sure Bowb said:

Cosmetic or not doesn't matter when I pay full-prize upfront.

I paid the whole thing, I want all the content at my disposal.

I like to customize my character's looks, it's fun.

The aesthetics are built into the game, they're part of the experience.

Denying those, by putting them behind a grind or paywall, is just shit.

For some cosmetics don't matter, for some they do. The latter are paying the bills.

I really don't get this - What is so bad about paying a little bit more money for a little bit more content? I get why people are frustrated that many games remove unlockables in lieu of paid content, but if it's a mix of both, why is it a big deal? That's kind of like saying I shouldn't be able to pay $2 extra and get pepperoni and anchovies on a pizza. Buying the extras is totally optional and it's no secret that they're part of the game, so what exactly is the issue? I'm just curious.

And even if you get those crates regularly, there's a LOT of stuff that you could get out of these, and you can even get doubles. I call BS on this.

This is the actual fuck-up Blizzard made. I'd rather lay down 5$, and get what I care about, instead of buying a random amount of crates to simulate gaining account levels.

Okay this I at least understand, I'd never put down actual cash for a "maybe this will suck or maybe it will be good" prize. If I'm laying down cash, let me choose specifically what I want. I mean none of this stuff applies to me as I hardly (have time to) play anything outside of Doom these days, but still.

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I don't see an issue with it. You don't HAVE to pay for the stuff, you can level up to get the items for free in the loot crates. Any duplicates you might get are converted into in-game credits you can use to purchase things. Also I'm pretty sure you can just directly purchase credits to use on any item you want, no randomness involved. Of course, you can purchase the random crates as well if you want to try your luck I suppose.

Either way, it's not like you have to spend the money. It's simply an option.

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Rayzik said:

Any duplicates you might get are converted into in-game credits you can use to purchase things. Also I'm pretty sure you can just directly purchase credits to use on any item you want, no randomness involved.

In that case, I really don't see an issue. Optional content for money has never really bothered me though, the only exception being in games like Gunbound and such where paying money literally makes your character have better stats - That's kinda BS. That aside though, the idea of more content costing more money just inherently makes sense.

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Arctangent said:

All I'm taking from that post is that you really, really hate Nintendo games.

Especially stuff like Smash Bros.


Look, there's a slight difference between "unlockables" and "stuff that you will eventually lay down extra money for, unless you want to grind for an unknown amount of time, because the game is designed to test your patience".

When I buy a pair of Dimarni high-heels, I want those to have a high-freaking-heel, as in: Not some stump that I can "glue more stuff to", in order to make the shoes what they're supposed to be.

If I buy a package of 12 eggs in the supermarket, I want to have 12 eggs, not 10, not 8, I want what I paid for, as in: 12 eggs.

If I buy super-hot peppers, I want them to be -wait for it- super-hot, as in: not spicey, or mild.

Why is it okay to let games get away with not allowing you to access all it's features from the get-go? I'm not talking about stuff that you can unlock, and access, in a reasonable amount of time, without any randomness to it, I am talking about stuff that you may or may not get within 100 hours of time spent.

All I'm taking from your post is that you really, really had nothing worthwhile to say.

Especially stuff that makes any sense.

Rayzik said:

Either way, it's not like you have to spend the money. It's simply an option.


I strongly disagree. Sure, I'm not forced to buy something I can randomly get Bondyè-knows-when. But the option isn't there because it does not work for the publisher.

Can we talk about this for real, or at least try to do so, for one or two seconds, please?

If I were to get into a free-to-play game with MTXs, that's fine by me. The price I pay is being confronted with stuff that I may want to have, until I eventually give in, and lay down the cash.

If I get into a full-price game, I don't want to have my patience permanently tested, I paid the price already.

Cosmetic MTXs may not be a problem for everybody, regardless of wether you can get them randomly or not, but they sure have a tartget audience.

I belong to that target audience, it is aimed at people like myself so we fork over more cash, because why not?

They put systems in place to keep you waiting. Every time you get a loot-box with something in it that you do not care about, your patience is being put to the test again, time after time.

If that does not apply to you, you can consider yourself lucky. I do care about cosmetics, it matters to me, and I'm not the only one.

Doomkid said:

In that case, I really don't see an issue. Optional content for money has never really bothered me though, the only exception being in games like Gunbound and such where paying money literally makes your character have better stats - That's kinda BS. That aside though, the idea of more content costing more money just inherently makes sense.


The conversion ratio for duplicates is ass.

It is not more content for more money. The content is already there, I paid full price. It is that simple.

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Doomkid said:

Okay this I at least understand, I'd never put down actual cash for a "maybe this will suck or maybe it will be good" prize.

I think it's mostly because they wanted to have something people could spend money on if they wanted to, but they didn't want to have to deal with actually pricing content for real world money ( you can't actually convert real money into the in-game currency, unless they added that recently and I haven't noticed ) while still keeping it feasible to obtain using the in-game stuff. So they decided to just let people pay for more chances at the random drop table, allowing some players to get several legendary skins for a dollar each while others end up actually paying for all the work put into those skins.

Or maybe they just wanted to avoid the stigma of having skins = paid money, so they just made the paid way of getting skins to be an extension of the normal way. Who knows?

It's still a pretty weird system, but there's nothing ambiguous about it; the option is pretty clearly labeled, when you're choosing how many crates to buy they make it perfectly clear that you're just buying crates and nothing else, etc.. So it's not like you can go in thinking you'll be buying x amount of tokens for y amount of cash, only to find you that you only got a bunch of sprays; what you're actually buying is really, really obvious.

Sure Bowb said:

Why is it okay to let games get away with not allowing you to access all it's features from the get-go? I'm not talking about stuff that you can unlock, and access, in a reasonable amount of time, without any randomness to it, I am talking about stuff that you may or may not get within 100 hours of time spent.

... Because if the unlock pace was faster, you'd run out of unlocks really quickly considering these multiplayer games are designed to be able to be played a lot?

I mean this statement is really confused with itself in the first place ( those first two sentences flat-out contradict each other ) but this honestly reads exactly like some conspiracy for game devs to bleed their players dry. They're non-core aspects of the game, secondary to everything else, being used as an incentive and being paced for the dedicated sort of player for this kind of game. The character skins really are a nice bonus, not something Blizzard focuses on.

Also, I'd love to see you say that the unlock requirements for, say, SSBM are capable of being accomplished in a reasonable amount of time. There's a reason why tournament discs and stuff force everything to be unlocked; it takes friggin' forever to get even the full roster unlocked.

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Arctangent said:

... Because if the unlock pace was faster, you'd run out of unlocks really quickly considering these multiplayer games are designed to be able to be played a lot?


Right, people would surely stop playing a multiplayer co-op-shooter competitively, or for fun, once they ran out of unlocks...[/S]

Arctangent said:

I mean this statement is really confused with itself in the first place ( those first two sentences flat-out contradict each other ) but this honestly reads exactly like some conspiracy for game devs to bleed their players dry. They're non-core aspects of the game, secondary to everything else, being used as an incentive and being paced for the dedicated sort of player for this kind of game. The character skins really are a nice bonus, not something Blizzard focuses on.


Yeah, studios and publishers are all saints, and totally not interested in earning money. And visuals surely are "non-core", because we're used to simply look at wireframes, aren't we? Wouldn't even matter if all the characters looked the same, much like DOOM back in the days when the cyberdemon was just a larger imp.[/S]

Hearthstone is free-to-play. It's okay to ask for money in-game to allow access to certain features, or to get more cards, in case the player has no "play money" left. It's what free-to-play does, it's the business model.

For DOOM I put down money (still have it on 3.5'), would it be okay for you to put down more money to unlock, for example textures, so the levels or monsters look different, or waiting a long time till these unlocked?

Arctangent said:

Also, I'd love to see you say that the unlock requirements for, say, SSBM are capable of being accomplished in a reasonable amount of time. There's a reason why tournament discs and stuff force everything to be unlocked; it takes friggin' forever to get even the full roster unlocked.


So, yeah, is that a good thing? Wouldn't it be nicer to lay down 5$ on top to have it all instantly available? Or, you know, have it available earlier in general?
EDIT: WAIT! Are you saying the game is trying your patience? Like, you want something to unlock that you care about, and paid for already? That sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it?


What I really don't understand is why you defend cosmetic MTXs in a full-price AAA game, when you think they don't matter. If they don't matter, why NOT give them away from the get-go? It doesn't matter, right?

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Arctangent said:

That's some binary thinking you have there, man lady.


I hope you don't mind the correction.

These I want to have answered:
Is it okay for you to have to spend a "lot of time" to unlock things in SSBM that you personally care about, eventhough these things were on the disc from day one?

If not: How would you feel if you did not have that much time to spend, and had to pay for the unlock instead, so you can make use of it reasonably early?

EDIT: How would you feel about never knowing when you'd actually get the unlock in the first place?

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I didn't realize the main, most important facet of the game was unlocking cosmetic features that in no way affect the gameplay in any way whatsoever at all.

Huh, I guess I was wrong this whole time about the game!

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Sure Bowb said:

I hope you don't mind the correction.

Not at all, though that was more of a gender-neutral "man," like something akin to "dude" anyway.

Sure Bowb said:

Is it okay for you to have to spend a "lot of time" to unlock things in SSBM that you personally care about, eventhough these things were on the disc from day one?

Yeah. I was just pointing out the fact that, yes, it's not exactly a new trend to shove content behind hours and hours of playing the same thing over and over again. Some of the stuff can be unlocked through alternate means, sure, but even that can take forever ( Mewtwo's alternate unlocking condition is playing 20 hours of versus modes! Not total gameplay, just versus! ).

Sure Bowb said:

If not: How would you feel if you did not have that much time to spend, and had to pay for the unlock instead, so you can make use of it reasonably early?

Well, the question is wrong. Overwatch and Melee are both game you just pick up and play whenever, especially if friends are available to play too. You can play them for like five minutes while waiting for something, or you can binge on them for hours on end. Neither is wrong, but neither is more "right" than the other. There's no rush to unlock anything, as you're not exactly missing out on anything - except, only in Melee, if you intend to play competitively with a character that has to be unlocked. There's not really any other situations to rush otherwise ( although that's mostly because the community has dealt with the issue of tournament venues having to unlock everything ) and that's only the case because you literally cannot practice with the character until you unlock it. In this case, it's definitely far more of an urgent matter.

Of course, if you change what we're talking about from "characters" to "trophies," then the deal suddenly becomes a lot closer to Overwatch's situation, actually, since they do nothing but let you rotate a model around and read some facts about the subject matter - it's not vital at all to the focal game experience to get trophies, which can be pretty dang difficult to actually unlock. Same deal with the music CDs in Brawl and Sm4sh; these ones are even closer to the Overwatch skins, since they are literally entirely aesthetic that you can turn on and off on the various stages.

Sure Bowb said:

EDIT: How would you feel about never knowing when you'd actually get the unlock in the first place?

It honestly adds some appeal to leveling up, actually. It's kind of irritating when I get a box full of sprays, but since I'm not missing anything vital to the actual gameplay there's absolutely nothing detracting from my anticipation of what will shoot out of the box. Not to mention it just feels so good when something I really wanted actually does finally pop out.

It may even be a strength. It'd potentially bum myself out seeing a static level-up rewards list and going "ugh I still need to play so many games to finally get this thing." Having the potential to get one of the things I want with each level up means that the reward becomes a surprise, instead of something I was slaving over - and the fact that I don't know how to work towards it keeps it from feeling like a chore.

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Clonehunter said:

I didn't realize the main, most important facet of the game was unlocking cosmetic features that in no way affect the gameplay in any way whatsoever at all.

Huh, I guess I was wrong this whole time about the game!


This is why for some it's okay to have to wait. Others care about these things. If you were anything like me (which you're obviously not), you'd find yourself in an annoying situation.

I mean, if you ever played some "Need for speed" game in the past, for example, you likely have taken your time to make your car of choice look nice. You unlocked new colours and vinyls by progressing through the game, and used them to your liking once you could do so. Did the look of your car affect the gameplay at all? Basically not, unless there was some mechanic behind it which made cops less agressive after you got a new paint-job (but that's not generally the case). The simple fact of the matter is, that when you have the option to customize the look of your character/car/weapon, you will do so at some point. For some this is simplyless important than it is for others, but that does in no way, shape or form justify MTXs in a full-price game.

It always starts with cosmetics, later down the line it will be something that actually has an influence on the gameplay, or the game's balance. This is bound to happen, because people tolerate these methods, or dismiss them as unimportant, until they matter for themselves, rather than thinking ahead a little bit further while keeping in mind that we're talking game industry here.

In Overwatch, cosmetics are a part of the game, no matter how important they are to you. The difference is that you never know when you'll get what you actually care about, which is an incentive to lay down extra money. If there was a specific point where you could be certain to get what you were looking for, it would be less of a problem, even if the option to buy things was there, because you'd know what you're working towards. However the player is doomed to play the guessing game, and that's where there's a method to the madness. Like it or lump it.

My biggest gripe is that they locked these cosmetics behind a potentially really grindy reward system, or a paywall. You're welcome to choose your own poison.

Arctangent said:

Yeah. I was just pointing out the fact that, yes, it's not exactly a new trend to shove content behind hours and hours of playing the same thing over and over again. .


OK, it's nothig new. Does that make it any better? I think not. We keep revolving around the same issue in terms of our conversation: To you cosmetics don't matter as much as they do for me. Adding insult to injury is that I have these cosmetics on display all the time, be it because some else has what I am looking for, or because blizzard has put those up for display, so I can look at something I want to have without ever knowing when I get it.

To understand where I'm coming from, you really need to think of something being locked behind a grind-/paywall that makes a difference for you, because you care about it. Once you really care about it, it es less of an optional feature, and more a trial of patience that encourages you to lay down your money (after already paying full-price). That's where I say it's gone too far.

The idea of releasing full price games with MTXs is something that will become more and more common, if nobody ever complains. Right now, Blizzard is getting away with it, mostly because they have a large fan-base, and a decent chunk of this fanbase thinks and feels like you do now. Others are like me, they may be more or less vocal, or more or less patient, or more or less skeptical, but they're also in this. Jim Sterling would be a great example of someone who is like me in this regard, he has his own YT channel, and he's not a "nobody". Go watch his video "pay 2 spray" it's spot on why these MTXs are not "OK" for everybody, and you might find him less annoying than me at this point, which I could understand, actually. :-)

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Arctangent said:

They're not very similar, besides the fact that they're team-based, use a stylized art style, and some abilities and weapons are pretty obviously derived from TF2.

I know an FPS game that is team beased and Style-lized. Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament.

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