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m0l0t0v

politics and religion

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OK, it`s been a while since we had a good-old "politics and religion" debate...

Here`s my theory:
Someday mankind will live in a perfect society.
With perfect society I mean: A society in which the state only exists to serve the individual man/ woman accomplish his/ her personal goal as a part of a healthy, non-violent and social(ist) structure; A social stucture that ensures its are people safe from violence, hunger/ starvation, poverty and exploitation.

The main problem is the different needs of individual and society.
Perfect for the individual means: Absolute freedom
Perfect for the society means: Absolute equality

So you might say it is impossible to please both individual AND society. Here`s the solution... Equality brings it`s own freedom.
I know it sounds like communist propaganda but in theory it works out.

Imagine a black man living in an absolutely free country. He wants to open a shop and is free to do so. However his neighbours don`t like blacks and decide not to buy anything or worse: burn the shop down; they are free to do that. There is freedom here; but without equality it is useless...
"Freedom without equality is an evil fiction created by villans to deceive fools" Mikal Bakounin (yeah I know Scientist quoted him before)

Now imagine a black man living in an absolutely equal country. Since everyone is equal there, everyone gets the same opportunity to open a shop. And since everyone is treaded equal there are no racists and the shop will have the potential to grow.

Now you might think I`m being naive to think man will ever learn to be humble enough to see his fellow-humans as equals dispite of race, religion,money, sex, etc; but I believe someday mankind will learn. The only way of accomplicing this (a perfect society) is through either of these revolutions:
1. Anarchism 2. Communism 3. something not yet discovered (D@narchism? :P). Anarchism may bring equality but it also brings freedom; too much of it. So anarchism can`t be trusted IMO.
Which brings us to Communism. Communism offers us a state which will look out for our equality. Sure things didn`t work out in the past... (fall of the USSR) but I`m being hypothetical now. In theory communism is the ONLY system capable of delivering a perfect society. I`m not trying to promote a red-revolution here, I just saying that for as long as mankind can remember it has dreamed of a perfect world/ society (the Bible, Plato, Utopia by Thomas More, Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Mahatma Gandhi, etc) and communism is a big step in that direction.

It is our job as human beings to constantly look for something more/ better (it`s in our genes). Man will not rest untill it has accomplished "the perfect world". What will or should be the next step?

[deep silence]
[/deep silence]

So what do you think?
Like they said in the good-old days:"flame on!"

[PS]don`t turn this one into debate on spelling/ grammar please![/PS]

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m0l0t0v said:

The only way of accomplicing this (a perfect society) is through either of these revolutions:
1. Anarchism 2. Communism 3. something not yet discovered (D@narchism? :P).

Damn right...

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There will never be equality because it is human nature to pick on (or at the very least, feel 'higher up' than) the weak.
All it really takes to start a war around here is to insult someone.

And there's always going to be one person in the world you don't particularily like.
Despite -all- the bad things in life, we need them to make us stronger and more aware.

Where do child molesters fit into this plan? It would still exist in an 'equal' world. If we don't scorn him/her, they continue. If we do, we are judging them and the equality is broken.

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It is also human nature to rally around leaders.

I think that we are nearing a point where the only real way of achieving greater societies involves changing humanity itself.

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No. No I can not see any scenario were Anarchism would be a good way to live. call me cynical if you will, but people are too stupid to live without laws.

heh, I just thinking of call to power:

Mind control = %100 happyness
LMAO!

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>>"There will never be equality because it is human nature to pick on the weak."

You have a point, but we have seen great changes in human thinking in the past.
the French Revolution/ Rationalism, Marxism, Satyagraha to name some. Great minds CAN change the way man thinks about him/herself and his/ her surroundings. Descartes/ Marx/ Gandhi opened eyes that were shut. They taught the world to look at things differently. They offers an alternative. Now we may believe mankind will never know equality, but who knows what theories the future holds. We`ll just have to wait for the next revolutionary philosopher...
...
...
...still waiting...

>>"I think that we are nearing a point where the only real way of achieving greater societies involves changing humanity itself."

Yep, we need to change the way we think... (of course without the use of mind control :P )

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Great minds CAN change the way man thinks about him/herself and his/ her surroundings.


I totally believe this. But there is no possible way of changing -everyones- mind. (Not to mention that alot of people view change with hostility and will probably lash out at the attempts. The attempt itself could spawn another war.)

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m0l0t0v said:

1. Anarchism

Without order there is chaos.

m0l0t0v said:

2. Communism

No. It is a very idealistic system that is incompatible with humanity. Everywhere they have tried to implement it fully it has failed. It is a system of equality, and offers no reward for success which causes so many problems.

m0l0t0v said:

3. something not yet discovered

My preference is a system which has been discovered - but not democracy.

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>>"But there is no possible way of changing -everyones- mind."

There is if the theory is perfect. The better the theory, the more chance people will follow. Of course in a perfect society EVERYONE would have to follow; everyone must believe in the philosophy. The chance of this happening is very limited unless there is actual prove. Many Idians didn`t believe they could free themselfs without violence, but Gandhi proved them wrong and gained support. It is a gradual process. Many people don`t believe in Marxism, but who knows, maybe Castro will prove them wrong (I hope).

But EVERYONE isn`t just the majority of people, it`s ... well everyone. There will always be "disturbed" people, but if you`re one of those people who believe environment plays a big rule in the development of these elements, you must admit in a perfect society these would be close to non-existent.

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GS-1719:

>>"Without order there is chaos."
Perfection knows no order only harmony (Well at least it sounds nice)

>>"Everywhere they have tried to implement it fully it has failed. It is a system of equality, and offers no reward for success which causes so many problems."
Cuba is still in the race and holding on.

>>My preference is a system which has been discovered - but not democracy."
Do you have anything specific in mind?

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Someday mankind will live in a perfect society

Impossible, unless your definition of perfect is extremely fuzzy.

The issue isn't whether or not we'll have the economic or material resources. Neither is it a matter of politics, religion, communication or humanism.

It's about the nature of human perception, intelligence, and function. I doubt there is any state which would be "perfect".

Seriously, anything less than that everyone's having a constant 24/7 orgasm, which would be the ultimate level of physical and mental stimuli, and it wouldn't be perfect (no kidding). It would also be necessary that no one had to move a finger to do anything. Everyone would have total knowledge and power of physical manifestation.

However, not making any progress scientifically and it wouldn't be perfect. A lot of people wouldn't find perfection to be the perfect state.

It's a paradox. On the one hand, we want to have things "perfect", everything fulfilled. On the other hand, the human mind needs something to strive for. Something to fulfill, even if things would happen to be perfect already. We'd get bored.

The only solution I can see would be to artificially remove the need for one of the two. I suggest the first one. It's kind of pointless. But then, it wouldn't really be about humans any more.

So, well, there isn't a solution to a perfect soecity.

You could get a good one though.

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«Without order there is chaos.»
We've been brainwashed by officials of religions and governments to believe that chaos is a negative thing. All things are already within chaos, only our rulers have made order out of the chaos to confine and control us with laws and rules.

The truth is, nobody knows why we are here or where we are going. And as Timothy Leary said, and I'm paraphrasing here, the officials of religion and government are just trying to comfort us by making rules and regulations. And in the process, they've become ardently obsessed with power, if you ask me. «To think for yourself you must question authority.»

As for my opinion of the government, I believe Pierre-Joseph Proudhon summed it up nicely : «To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated, regimented, closed in, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, evaluated, censored, commanded; all by creatures that have neither the right, nor wisdom, nor virtue ... To be governed means that at every move, operation, or transaction one is noted, registered, entered in a census, taxed, stamped, priced, assessed, patented, licensed, authorized, recommended, admonished, prevented, reformed, set right, corrected. Government means to be subjected to tribute, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, pressured, mystified, robbed; all in the name of the public utility and the general good. Then, at the first sign of resistance or word of complaint, one is repressed, fined, despised, vexed, pursued, hustled, beaten up, garroted, imprisoned, shot, machinegunned, judged, sentenced, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed, and to cap it all, ridiculed, mocked, outraged, and dishonored. That is government, that is its justice and its morality! ... O human personality! How can it be you have cowered in such subjection for sixty centuries?»

Someone said that people are too stupid to live without government. I believe that this is because we've been dumbed down by it for centuries. It is probably too late now to fix our world, but those of us who can see that there is something very wrong with it should be able to independently continue the evolution of our amazing human minds and personalities which government has tried so hard to repress.

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I like chaos. I find it very comforting. Law feels unatural and gives me an empty feeling inside, like I'm some kind of automaton without any real purpose. With chaos anything can happen, keeping my life exciting, enjoyable, unpredictable.

It's chaos that created this universe, and chaos that rules it. We could all be wiped out in an instant you know, without warning. The entire human race. Gone. If one large object floating through the cosmos happens to enter the same space as our planet is occupying, we will be destroyed. Annihilated. Vanished with all of our precious laws.

Live life one day at a time, for you are lucky to be alive and you should celebrate that.

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the_Danarchist said:

I like chaos. I find it very comforting. Law feels unatural and gives me an empty feeling inside, like I'm some kind of automaton without any real purpose. With chaos anything can happen, keeping my life exciting, enjoyable, unpredictable.

It's chaos that created this universe, and chaos that rules it. We could all be wiped out in an instant you know, without warning. The entire human race. Gone. If one large object floating through the cosmos happens to enter the same space as our planet is occupying, we will be destroyed. Annihilated. Vanished with all of our precious laws.

Live life one day at a time, for you are lucky to be alive and you should celebrate that.


Some very good, not to mention true points there Dan.
Me, i'm torn between fate and chaos, and knowing me i'll be sat on the fence for quite some time.
I believe in re-incarnation, and the ability to see into past lives - especially under hypnosis -, but i also believe in the insignificance of the human race, in the fact that the universe wouldn't batt an eyelid if we got hit by an asteroid tomorrow. Sometimes i think it would be for the better, considering the evil witches brew of brutal emotions that simmers just beneath the surface of our consciousness.

Besides the point, though, it's a frustrating day and age when anything that can't be scientifically proven is scoffed at. Yet, at the same time, religion is forced down our throats alongside our Happy Meals whether we like it or not... tv, radio, even obnoxious street preachers. Hell, some of the greatest scientists tend to wear a crucifix.

It's an odd, odd world.

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Baz Luhrmann;

Ladies and gentlemen, of the class of '99.
Wear Sunscreen.
If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it.
The long-term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.
I will dispense this advice now.

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth.
Oh, never mind.
You will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they've faded.
But trust me, in 20 years, you'll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked.
You are not as fat as you imagine.

Don't worry about the future.
Or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum.
The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind.
The kind that blindside you at 4 p.m. on some idle Tuesday.

Do one thing every day that scares you.

Sing.

Don't be reckless with other people's hearts.
Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.

Floss.

Don't waste your time on jealousy.
Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind.
The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself.

Remember compliments you receive.
Forget the insults.
If you succeed in doing this, tell me how.

Keep your old love letters.
Throw away your old bank statements.

Stretch.

Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life.
The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives.
Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still don't.

Get plenty of calcium.
Be kind to your knees.
You'll miss them when they're gone.

Maybe you'll marry, maybe you won't.
Maybe you'll have children, maybe you won't.
Maybe you'll divorce at 40, maybe you'll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary.
Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much, or berate yourself either.
Your choices are half chance.
So are everybody else's.

Enjoy your body.
Use it every way you can.
Don't be afraid of it or of what other people think of it.
It's the greatest instrument you'll ever own.

Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your living room.

Read the directions, even if you don't follow them.

Do not read beauty magazines.
They will only make you feel ugly.

Get to know your parents.
You never know when they'll be gone for good.
Be nice to your siblings.
They're your best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future.

Understand that friends come and go, but with a precious few you should hold on.
Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and lifestyle, because the older you get, the more you need the people who knew you when you were young.

Live in New York City once, but leave before it makes you hard.
Live in Northern California once, but leave before it makes you soft.
Travel.

Accept certain inalienable truths:
Prices will rise.
Politicians will philander.
You, too, will get old.
And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.

Respect your elders.

Don't expect anyone else to support you.
Maybe you have a trust fund.
Maybe you'll have a wealthy spouse.
But you never know when either one might run out.

Don't mess too much with your hair or by the time you're 40 it will look 85.

Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it.
Advice is a form of nostalgia.
Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

But trust me on the sunscreen.

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Fredrik: Impossible, unless your definition of perfect is extremely fuzzy.

read:

m0l0t0v: With perfect society I mean: A society in which the state only exists to serve the individual man/ woman accomplish his/ her personal goal as a part of a healthy, non-violent and social(ist) structure; A social stucture that ensures its are people safe from violence, hunger/ starvation, poverty and exploitation.

fraggle: Dream on.

All great changes start as dreams

Danarchist: Law feels unatural and gives me an empty feeling inside, like I'm some kind of automaton without any real purpose. With chaos anything can happen, keeping my life exciting, enjoyable, unpredictable.

A man in a world of chaos would be the true automaton without any real purpose. There`d no point and no goal in living since man has absolutely no control over his life. Law creates (the illusion of) crontol of your surroundings and therefore the power for man to create/ realise his own goals. Man has to make personal laws in order to create purpose. To force these laws on others is a different matter...

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Accept the world, try to make your part of it more comfortable, and if you get the chance, try to make others comfortable.

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m0l0t0v said:

A man in a world of chaos would be the true automaton without any real purpose. There`d no point and no goal in living since man has absolutely no control over his life. Law creates (the illusion of) crontol of your surroundings and therefore the power for man to create/ realise his own goals. Man has to make personal laws in order to create purpose. To force these laws on others is a different matter...

No, no...chaos gives you a chance to do whatever you want. Law steals your freedom. In fact, know what? It would be great if the apocalypse came now. Chances are I would be killed, and that would be fine. But it would also be great if I lived, then I could live free of society. Fuck...I need no one. My family are a bunch of idiots. My friends abandonned me. Might as well go fucking crazy...

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Danarchist:
Fuck...I need no one. My family are a bunch of idiots. My friends abandonned me. Might as well go fucking crazy...


Might this be the Danarchism-philosophy we`ve all been waiting for?

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m0l0t0v said:

Might this be the Danarchism-philosophy we`ve all been waiting for?

Even I'm in the dark about it's true nature.

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the_Danarchist said:
I like chaos. I find it very comforting. Law feels unatural and gives me an empty feeling inside, like I'm some kind of automaton without any real purpose. With chaos anything can happen, keeping my life exciting, enjoyable, unpredictable.

It's chaos that created this universe, and chaos that rules it. We could all be wiped out in an instant you know, without warning. The entire human race. Gone. If one large object floating through the cosmos happens to enter the same space as our planet is occupying, we will be destroyed. Annihilated. Vanished with all of our precious laws.

Live life one day at a time, for you are lucky to be alive and you should celebrate that.


Maybe Chaos suits you, but dose it suit humankind as a whole? My father has been the principle of a number of special schools around the state. Now, if the government declared anarchy tomorrow, what would happen to the students of theses school? I suppose some of them would be fine, they'd live with their families, and sit around the house doing nothing. But allot of them would be kicked out of house and home, simply because there too difficult live with. Some generous people might try to keep the school open, but what if some Nazis decided to "kill off the weak" and burn the school to the ground?

These school teach disabled children how to look after themselves, because, frankly, nobody else gives flying fuck weather they live or die! You think I'm going over board? Do some volunteer work at one of these schools for a year or so. The only resign the mentally disabled have any close to a decent existence is because the government made a LAW stating that all children have a right to an education. I'll say it again, there is no scenario were anarchy would work.

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