I dunno if this fit with our type of license, but if we can include with the Iwad a copy of the Boom executable we can hardcode the names into the exe and make Freedoom a fully standalone game, maybe calling it Boom.


It's not compatible with our license, unless we changed our minds and decide to GPL FreeDoom.

Besides, we'd never be able to agree on which port to use. We might as well just distribute a dehecked patch if we want to change names.

The name Boom would be a near certain winner if it wasn't already taken. If only.

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(clove smoke) catharsis! I like that one. Also:

Porphyria
Exsanguination
Over Exposure

(ebola :P)

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(clove smoke) catharsis! I like that one.

Um, I don't understand the association of clove smoke w/ catharsis.

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Ok, we're getting plenty of ideas, so now we have to work out how we go about choosing one.

How about:
- collect all the suggestions so far, and give another week, say, for more name suggestions to roll in
- post a list of the names to choose from, and allow a week for people to post any basic objections to those names (e.g. known trademarked, or name of another major project)
- have a poll of project members, designed to cut that list down to a shortlist
- having got down to a shortlist of 4, say, we could ask Doomworld or similar to host a public poll to make the final choice.

I don't mind organising this, assuming noone else has a burning desire to be in charge. I'm running out of textures that my limited artistic skillz will cope with anyway ;-).

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That sounds like a good idea. I will go on record as being vehemently opposed to despayre/'dewm' and 'mood'

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Yeah. I too, dislike the idea of dewm and mood. despayre is ok, but somehow not right.

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Apathy


ap·a·thy
n.
Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

IMO, that makes no sense when applied to the doom scenario.

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Why not FREEDOOM?

As opinioned earlier, you can have the word DOOM as part of the name WITHOUT worrying about trademark infringement.

This stuff is very easy to check - see:

http://tess.uspto.gov/

then select (TESS) and then New User Form Search (it establishes a session, so a prelink won't work).

Type in DOOM and see what pops up - sort of interesting to see DOOM "owned" by more than 1. DOOM II and FINAL DOOM are 2 separate trademarks. I hope this makes it clearer that FREEDOOM is both a natural and safe name.

See http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmfaq.htm#DefineTrademark
for a definition of trademarks.

Similarly, the concern over sprite names is unfounded. I didn't check but a few, but somehow I doubt they bothered to trademark those. The lump names are like the names of characters in a novel.

[oops a typo and bad link]

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Consider the criteria set out by http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/infringe.html#elements. I don't know if these are accurate but they look reasonable.

1. It contains the word Doom and is pronounced Free-Doom
2. It's a replacement product
3. Most computer games players will have heard of DOOM, and there are multiple products from id using that name.
4. Probably not.
5. Um, we're replacing their game, not good.
6. No. 7. No
8. They're making a new game using that name.

So we fail on 5 out of 8 points. IANAL but I'd say we would be in trouble.

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So we fail on 5 out of 8 points. IANAL but I'd say we would be in trouble.

Let's assume that's true (legally that's actually pretty good, there are 3 in your favor - (law is not a "majority" thing at all).

However, let's be practical. What kind of "trouble" would you be in?

The WORST that can happen is you can't use the name. The way that works is that it comes down to "damages". This is a civil thing, not a criminal thing guys. So what are the damages?

As a matter of academic interest, how come none of this came to mind on the name DOOMWORLD? Don't you think that is a much BIGGER infringement than some IWAD for an old game that id has no real interest in? The new cyber laws come to mind on this issue - but never mind, let's stick with the topic.

Like I said, be practical. All this is needless speculation - just email ID and ask if you are so worried.

I'd hate to see some lame name being used when the RIGHT name could have been used all along.

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I read the url you gave and it explains that something does not need to be registered with the government to be a trademark: this is the difference between the "TM" and "(R)" marks: TM means an unregistered trademark while (R) means a registered trademark. As the trademark search engine only shows registered trademarks, the fact that it is not listed does not mean that it is not trademarked.

At the start of the project I emailed John Carmack to ask about intellectual property infringements and his reply was thus:

You can make a completely different game using the code with our blessing, but if it has imps, cyber demons, BFGs, etc, then you are treading on thin ice.

Now, possibly there is no legal grounding for that, I dont know and you're welcome to prove it isnt. However, thats what I've been told and I'm going to stick by it. I take "imps, cyberdemons, BFGs, etc" to include the UAC name as well (Re: other thread).

The WORST that can happen is you can't use the name. The way that works is that it comes down to "damages". This is a civil thing, not a criminal thing guys. So what are the damages?

Even so, I'd hate to go through all the trouble of title screens, graphics etc etc. with the name "freedoom" in, only to find later that we have to redo them all.

I'm not a lawyer, but there clearly is some doubt over the legality of the Freedoom name, so I'd personally rather stay on the cautious side and avoid it.

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I read the url you gave and it explains that something does not need to be registered

Correct, same as copyright. You don't have to. However, if you read up more, it is wise to do so from a commercial POV. (Otherwise why do any of it - must be a reason eh)

You can make a completely different game using the code with our blessing, but if it has imps, cyber demons, BFGs, etc, then you are treading on thin ice.

If you want to discourage yourself, you just did. IOW, that implies (from your pov) you can't use even "simulated" imps, cyber demons, BFGs etc. It's a fact you are going to have exactly those elements in FREEDOOM. So using your POV, I argue that ALL the enemies are exactly as they are in DOOM. Replacing them with new graphics does not change their status as an imp, cyber demon, BFG, etc. Do you see where this is going?

Now it's pretty obvious that is again just not so. For one thing, that's been going on for literally years - sprite replacements for same. ID allowing that to go on for all that time, basically denies them any right to complain now since this can for all practical purposes be considered a giant PWAD (just keep reading those references), an accepted form of modification.

I think its safe to say that all of you believe you can replace the raw graphics with anything you like (except UAC<g>). Why? (IOW, why did you bring up the Carmack quote since you clearly disregarded it?)

I take "imps, cyberdemons, BFGs, etc" to include the UAC name as well

Well I hope I demonstrated that this argument doesn't stick together well. You are willing to "replace" the sprites with new "bits" yet somehow think UAC is sacred? Just like the sprites, UAC is nothing more or less sacred as a collection of bits. OTOH, if you want to be consistent and include everything, then nothing can be done.

Let's to an even simpler example, the textures. Clearly everyone also believes those are not a problem. Why not? IOW, why is there not a problem with you making an xWAD using those texture NAMES. Using your type of "cautious" reasoning, the names are copyrighted and you can't use them. True?

I'm not a lawyer, but there clearly is some doubt over the legality of the Freedoom name, so I'd personally rather stay on the cautious side and avoid it.

Well, I hope I raised some more doubt over the other issues then, because they ALL fall into the same type of "doubt" argument you present.

The bottom line is this - either Id cares about you releasing an IWAD that is compatible with (and a replacement for) DOOMII or they don't. Nothing else matters.

So write and ask if it's ok to do this. None of what is opined (even for stuff that everyone seems to think is ok) matters a bit if Id doesn't like what you are doing.

This is at some risk of opening up a can of worms larger than just using the "FREEDOOM" name, since Carmack most likely will not be the one that will answer you. If you don't write, you risk the problems noted earlier (taking the "cautious" approach) and then what?

Please don't argue just to try to prove me wrong. Instead, take the positive aspects and see that they all fit in with what you have done so far. I hope you saw that I can push it either way and show how none of this can be done using -consistent- logic, not just emotional feelings.

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Deep: you just don't like the name Flaccid.

You got me. I like Porphyria. Gives me that DOOM feeling if you know what I mean.

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Jonathan said:

END = ENDs Not Doom
BIND = BIND Is Not Doom
DINTUD = Doom Isn't Needed To Use DINTUD
MITOLTI = MITOLTI Is Treading On Legal Thin Ice
ASBRAD = ASBRAD Shouldn't Be Referred to As Doom
E-AUTODAWPACOD = E-AUTODAWPACOD Allows Users To Operate Doom Addons Without Purchasing A Copy Of Doom




i like the last one the best, but forget the E, just AUTODAWPACOD would be great :). pernounced "auto-duh-pack-odd"

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You are so gonna burn...

No seriously, don't resurrect a thread unless you have some really important to say...

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boris said:

Who the hell would notice that? Where the hell did you find something like that anyway?

Despayre: The Free IWAD gets my vote.



I'm pretty sure people will notice in say....3 years.

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Shaviro said:

I'm pretty sure people will notice in say....3 years.


Ok, now please tell me the coherence you took that out because I can't remember and I'm too lazy to look trough 3 pages of posts to find my old post :)

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I'd suggest "Reprise", but I'm saving that for a project.

How about "Hell Remixed"?

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Liam the Bard said:

'REoL FREE'

hahaha

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