Thanks again for taking the time to reply, and sorry for the late reply.... I am just busy trying to finish up some classes.
Foreword: sorry about the quote heavy post and the length of it, I just wanted to respond thoroughly
Ok, that's what you try to do and like to see in wads.
Some of the original doom levels have significant flaws too.
I try to strive for something closer to their stated objective, and try to improve the immersion in the doom world.
Again, thanks... I'll try my best to follow your advice.
I do not especially think that someone is going to follow my design guidelines, but I am willing to point out some of the more irritating stuff (after that it just grew).
I hopefully have fixed that issue by making the floor inconsistent in that area, indicating a possible secret.
The problem that I had with the lifts on that level:
1. The players cannot discover that particular secret room while playing the level.
The secret room cannot be seen in any normal play, not even by poking around or searching for it.
Is this still about the lifts? If so, then I think I have solved it... if not, then can you be more specific?
2. I had to nose grind the entire level in a fruitless search, or give up early and cheat, which leaves this player with a negative reaction right there. It has become a consideration to the player to put a different texture over a secret door. This is similar.
You caught me, I always have 'always-run' toggled. While I can see how it would be like jumping, it is not actually as bad because it is not bug induced and it is in the original game and is standard practice by many by now. When striving to build a secret, I try to make them un-orthidox by comparison to the rest of the game-play of the level, I mean would it be secret if you just had to do what you already were doing in order to obtain it? I think a player should be rewarded for stepping out side of his box. I don't map purely for entertainment purposes, but I will elaborate on that later.
3. Even after using an editor to find the secret, in 20 tries, I could not run the switch maze fast enough to get to the prize. I think it is only playable using always-run enabled or having mouse run (thus can run very fast). I know that holding the move-forward key down hard is not fast enough to get there in time. I had to use no-clip to get in. Requiring extra fast running is much like requiring jumping.
Well, I see this as just a reiteration of your first point, so I'll tell you some of my preferences. If you can't tell by my map... I like dynamics in Wads & in games in general. I like puzzles and I like to figure out how things work. I am a person who likes those Chinese finger trap puzzles and such. I find it natural to want to explore these things, and though by now in my life it should not surprise me that others do not share this interest... I am still 'taken-aback' when I find out.
4. Before the player knows of the secret room, there is no logical reason to run that strange switch pushing maze to go backwards through the lifts. There are too many strange illogical constructions in wads, that this one does not stand out as needing to be searched further.
Sorry about this next part, I just feel it needs to be said.
I don't like this trend I have been seeing... the "once you've seen one you've seen them all" mentality. It seems to me that people who like mapping could be discouraged by this. Your not the only one I have seen saying this, and it could just be me. :P
They were not, I assure you. I just like being able to activate a lift with out hitting a switch, and I was just wanting the lifts to be interesting. Its been fixed by putting the switches on walls near the lifts.
5. Those walkover triggers on the lifts seem to be positioned just to frustrate the players attempts. I would eliminate the walkover triggers entirely, the switches are adequate.
Again, I think I have fixed this, but feel free to tell me if you don't think its obvious enough.
6. This secret room needs some clue that there is something to be found at that spot. A different texture, a visible space between the lift and the wall, an ladder down, an electrical texture in a recess extending down below the lift, a bit of the door being visible when the lift first goes down, being able to see the secret area from an inaccessible direction, but it needs something that could be seen in normal play.
I know Ego-raptor would agree with you... :P
A. I consider lit arrows on the floor, and signs, to be worse than having to ignore a secret room. That is too much help and really unbelievable.
I thought that always-run was normal movement. Is this general, or did you have problems with other secrets?
B. If a player has to search for a missed secret room, I feel it should be possible by normal play movement, or a few attempts to get to places that were skipped, or a previously seen place thought unattainable.
C. I think the player should feel they have a chance to find it, and have some idea of where to concentrate their attempts.
Which puzzle was this? Or... oh your just saying these are your general rules for levels.
D. I especially do not care for any puzzle that is solved by try and die.
Some people legitimately enjoy that I believe. For example, here on doom-world many regulars speed run levels. In many flash games there are timed sections or skill based sections. Track-mania is a game where you race against the best time on tracks. There are speed scrabble competitions in various places... hell even crossword competition.
E. When the only way to solve some puzzle is to try the same path over and over and over again, I wonder why the designer thought that repeating the same movements to such an extreme, would be more fun than playing the next level.
Now why they enjoy it varies across the board... but its there...
In the case of my map, maybe I am just missing what people enjoy... but that's why I am here... to learn. So thanks again, to you and anyone who helps me in that endeavor.
Last edited by Macro11_1 on Dec 3 2011 at 23:15