ZDaemon 1.09 Released

@ZDaemon-Devs:
I just want one thing answered from you folks and just from you, what would you have to loose from releasing the source of 1.09 and onward?

Lyfe said:

We're not having a discussion. I've been staying as factual as I can, and you're slinging mud. By definition a discussion involves examining an issue. You're not examining anything. You're making shit up in order to justify your mistake ideas, and continue

Actually we're both making entirely unsubstantiated claims. You're saying "trust us, we totally took all the GPL code out of ZDaemon", and I'm saying, "I don't trust you, prove it".

Lyfe said:

Yes, please. Tell me where we got GPL code from again?

vectors.cpp is from Quake 2, for one. A lot of your console code, as well as the whole idea of CVARs is suspiciously "Quake-y". This doesn't count all the code contributed to ZDaemon while it was being released as GPL software (csDoom 0.7 until ZD 1.07), but you would make some bullshit up about how you got permission to re-license that code or that you re-sourced it to earlier DSL versions, so I think the Q2 stuff is the best example.

It's also worth saying that that file says "Taken from Q2" in it. ROFL.

Lyfe said:

Fact: ZDaemon will not be releasing the 1.08 sources.
Ladna's FUD: There is something to hide.
Truth: We don't want a forked project. It's not good for us, and it's probably not good for the the community we have built. Don't include yourself in that, since you've obviously decided you're not part of it.

I'm glad you guys can finally admit that the only reason you won't release the source is that you want complete control over your community. It's not good for it, by the way, your playerbase has dwindled to practically nothing.

Lyfe said:

Fact: ZDaemon uses code from multiple sources with their own licenses.
Ladna's FUD: They're breaking GPL somewhere.
Truth: We've done our research. We pay attention to it.

Seeing as you didn't even know about vectors.cpp (or other examples in the code), this is obvious bullshit.

BTW, this reminds me of a little picture...
http://i.imgur.com/W94IJ.jpg

Bastet Furry said:

BTW, this reminds me of a little picture...
http://i.imgur.com/W94IJ.jpg

That whole thread was pretty damn hilarious!

Lyfe said:Didn't you people ever learn that if you have nothing nice to say to shut your mouth, smile, nod, leave the room, and express it at the right time & place?

Pardon me, but could you possibly do me a favor and direct me to an appropriate place where I can express my comments and concerns regarding the newest release of ZDaemon? Preferably I want the ability to freely address my comments without fear of account deactivation or master banning. Oh wait...

Lyfe said:We don't want a forked project. It's not good for us, and it's probably not good for the the community we have built. Don't include yourself in that, since you've obviously decided you're not part of it.

That's not a fair statement. Landa is no longer part of the ZD community due to his adverse standing with the head admin and because of a laughable cheating ban. Do you really expect him to sit idle and wait til he's granted an audience with the anointed ones?

Dr. Sean said:

That whole thread was pretty damn hilarious!

internetseriousbusiness.jpg =]

BTW, i still want a clear and objective answer from the devs why ZDaemon is not open source.

I want to be informed about ZDaemon, but all I keep reading in this thread is WANK WANK WAAAAAAAAANK. I guess it is true, competitive gaming really is the unwashed, stinking asshole of the internet.

So you decided to take part in it?

Solarn said:

I want to be informed about ZDaemon, but all I keep reading in this thread is WANK WANK WAAAAAAAAANK.

Nope, the devs only seem to be loved like athletes foot.
(Beliebt wie Fußpilz, for the German readers.)

Solarn said:

I guess it is true, competitive gaming really is the unwashed, stinking asshole of the internet.

I thought that was /b/...

Seriously, you have multi-player gaming communities with far less drama, but they tend to be boring as hell.
So choose, do you want it interesting with a few idiots or boring?

kristus said:

So you decided to take part in it?

I see it as my solemn duty to mock SRS BSNS wherever I find it.

I like this thread, it's generating enough heat for me to toast marshmallows.

And to play Doom online!!

GreyGhost said:

I like this thread, it's generating enough heat for me to toast marshmallows.

YMMD =]

Ladna said:

vectors.cpp is from Quake 2, for one. A lot of your onsole code, as well as the whole idea of CVARs is suspiciously "Quake-y". This doesn't count all the code contributed to ZDaemon while it was being released as GPL software (csDoom 0.7 until ZD 1.07)

Hey, you came armed for once. How long have you been sitting on this one? Lets be honest, this whole discussion is that we have control and you want control (or at least access to create control). I guess the project must be pretty damn successful if it's in demand. Thanks.

Vectors.cpp is math. At least the parts that came from quake2 (which anyone can see.. they were in 1.06). Math is not covered under copyright law, and thus cannot be restricted under a license. Btw, the only way to resolve an dispute on this issue is with a couple of lawyers and a judge. On the plus side, this also means there's not a license violation in RH's code.

ZDaemon was NEVER distributed under GPL. Claiming it doesn't make it true. (After all, there's never been a GPL license file to go with it, which is required for all GPL projects.) There was a GPL violation, but we fixed the violation - which involved removing the offending code. Again, quit with your FUD.

I'm rather tired of being correct and being put on the defensive. So, find some lawyers to duke this out, as I'm done.

For anyone following this: yes, it means I'm not responding to any more of Ladna's accuastions on the topic. Sorry to wreck your bathroom reading. :)

1. I have never sat on it. Maybe that's something ZDaemon admins/devs would do, but I'm not a slimedog.

2. If it's math, then why did Randy rewrite it for ZDoom 2.X? Also a lot of stuff in that file is pretty obviously not just simple vector math.

3. Fly released csDoom 0.7 under the GPL. At least ZDaemon 0.99 was released as GPL (license file & all). I guess I was just assuming since you guys included that code in 1.0.3, 1.06 etc., and that the source was open that you guys weren't totally ignorant. My bad I guess?

4. Actually you've been incorrect about everything, so I can see why you're tired.

USA #1
I-D-L
OpenBSD > FreeBSD
UD ON TOP

Lyfe said:

Lets be honest, this whole discussion is that we have control and you want control (or at least access to create control).

I can't speak for Ladna, but my involvement with Zandronum and Odamex have never been about me personally having more control. Hell, I run a very popular Zandronum and Odamex server farm now, and I can't remember the last time I've personally banned someone without one of my admins coming to me first. I don't want power. I want the multiplayer doom community to be self-determining, without having to answer to people like this idiot.

In my ideal scenario, server admins would have control over servers they paid for (and nobody elses'), master server admins would simply block attacks against the master server and otherwise not care about who was using it, and the programmers would concentrate on making the port better instead of more exclusive.

Vectors.cpp is math. At least the parts that came from quake2 (which anyone can see.. they were in 1.06). Math is not covered under copyright law, and thus cannot be restricted under a license.

This is complete nonsense. Mathematics itself may not be copyrightable, but a specific computerized implementation of solving a non-trivial math problem can indeed be covered under a license.

Btw, the only way to resolve an dispute on this issue is with a couple of lawyers and a judge.

This is what it comes down to it. Ultimately, the GPL is only as truly "effective" as the copyright holders are willing to sue. Of course, banking on rights-holders not suing is something your project is quite familiar with (see the GetWAD controversy). Only id software has any standing to sue, and you guys are too small time for that.

So the only real fallback the doom community has is ostracism.

Humanbones:
Some mildly sarcastic crap about bans and FUD

I'm so glad you're not butthurt. Your impersonation of me and use of my real name on Twitter is such a class act. Congratulations: I expect they made you a Hero of the Revolution.

Alexmax:
Same old crap and name calling...

Up yours pal. Fuck you very much too ;-)

Alexmax again:
Of course, banking on rights-holders not suing is something your project is quite familiar with (see the GetWAD controversy). Only id software has any standing to sue, and you guys are too small time for that.

And the fact that they did nothing despite your letters to them proves that you're full of shit. It was real smart of you back then to bite the hand that fed you. Ostracize my ass I say.

Ladna trying to show off his knowledge about the GPL

Yeah. It would be interesting to hear how any old ZDaemon (or ZDoom) distribution could be GPL with all the heretic/raven code in there. But you think I care about your walls of text again? LOL. Go find other suckers that will read your tripe.

Bastet Furry asking about why the code is closed

The most common result while the code was open sourced was that it helped:

• Attackers: there was for example an "illustrious gentleman" from this (DW) community who used the openess as a blueprint for his attacks on the Zdaemon master, including hijacking a program used by players of another port to do a DDOS). And all that because he claimed an exclusive right on chat (right: according to him, ZDaemon had no right to operate its own chat server).
  
  
• Cheaters: several such examples come to mind. Some people used it for "custom cheats" (so they can claim that they're gods), while others used it in a very obvious fashion in order to destroy the game of others. And yet others made and distributed aimbots with the explicit intent to ruin ZDaemon (that illustrious gentleman as well as a couple more mofos come to mind).
  
  
• Power hungry would-be-usurpers who try to derive (and exercise) influence by threatening to basically steal (fork) the source code: case in point, the above commissars that raise hell every time anyone mentions the ZDaemon name on a public forum.
  
  
• Assorted fruitcakes: There was a guy for example who wanted to get his hands on the source code so he could modify his own servers to kill people who used some legit option that he personally disapproved of.

Keep in mind, all of the above has been going on for years. And how many people did actually do anything good (from the ZDaemon project's POV) with the source code while the source code was open? like contribute a bug fix for example? I'm afraid that such instances were counted on the fingers of one hand.

If someone is interested in ZDaemon and is willing to contribute to the project, he'll soon find his way into the team. I can count at least 6 guys who entered the "core" team after me in such a way. But if you're asking us to share the code with people who crap on us every waking moment, then sorry: that will NOT happen. And if someone thinks we owe him the code (or anything), I've got some news for him: we're NOT your employees. ZDaemon is based on OUR effort and OUR dime. We will not be pushed around by people who think they can come to OUR place and dictate terms.

Yay! Flamewar!

phenex2 said:

Also keep in mind that Doom does not use 64 bit datatypes so you wouldnt even gain any additional performance from a 64 bit build.

ReMooD on x86_64 runs much faster than it does on x86_32, and it is quite noticeable. Why is this? More memory, more registers (this really helps), 64-bit operations (fixed point math is a single cycle rather than 4-8).

If you aren't supporting x86_64 these days then you are out of the game since it is the future, at least until ARM completely dominates the market and everyone uses that instead.

Kilgore said:

I'm so glad you're not butthurt. Your impersonation of me and use of my real name on Twitter is such a class act. Congratulations: I expect they made you a Hero of the Revolution.

No more classier than banning someone for saying something on a completely different IRC network. Who is the butthurt one?

Kilgore said:

Up yours pal. Fuck you very much too ;-)

Talking to you on more amicable terms doesn't really change your responses, so why bother.

And the fact that they did nothing despite your letters to them proves that you're full of shit. It was real smart of you back then to bite the hand that fed you. Ostracize my ass I say.

The fact that they never got around to sending you a C&D doesn't mean that you were right. Stealing is stealing.

There was for example an "illustrious gentleman" from this (DW) community who used the openess as a blueprint for his attacks on the Zdaemon master, including hijacking a program used by players of another port to do a DDOS).

Protocol obfuscation is not an effective means of preventing DDoSes. It just makes it slightly harder for Blzut3 to add a plugin for Doomseeker. Besides, for years after the attack you had a publicly available API that IDE_Net demonstrated, but as soon as Blzut3 implemented it in Doomseeker you shut it off. Then when he figured out your protocol you got really mad that a server browser for the most popular online doom port was giving you free exposure and promised to switch up the protocol on him. What the hell is wrong with you?

Cheaters: several such examples come to mind. Some people used it for "custom cheats" (so they can claim that they're gods), while others used it in a very obvious fashion in order to destroy the game of others.

*laughs* Do I really have to point to the countless commercial games that have cheats released for them? After years of wallhacks and aimbots, not even the Zandronum community buys that bullshit anymore.

Power hungry would-be-usurpers who try to derive (and exercise) influence by threatening to basically steal (fork) the source code: case in point, the above commissars that raise hell every time anyone mentions the ZDaemon name on a public forum.

I don't want to be in your position. I don't want there to be a "your position". Your position shouldn't exist. You should be enpowering your server administrators and players, not smacking the back of their hands with a ruler when they do something you don't approve of.

Assorted fruitcakes: There was a guy for example who wanted to get his hands on the source code so he could modify his own servers to kill people who used some legit option that he personally disapproved of.

As far as I'm concerned, that's their right as a server admin. You want to know why? Because for every server that does something players don't like, there's a dozen easy alternatives that do. Hell, Konar runs some of the most popular Zandronum servers out there and he uses his own custom build of Zandronum and somehow the sky hasn't fallen.

And how many people did actually do anything good (from the ZDaemon project's POV) with the source code while the source code was open? like contribute a bug fix for example? I'm afraid that such instances were counted on the fingers of one hand.

You shouldn't do it because you expect something in return. You should do it for your community's sake and because without John Carmack, Randy Heit and countless other contributors beforehand choosing to open their source, you wouldn't have a ZDaemon to be working on. It's within your licensed rights to keep the source closed, but it's also incredibly selfish.

But if you're asking us to share the code with people who crap on us every waking moment, then sorry: that will NOT happen. And if someone thinks we owe him the code (or anything), I've got some news for him: we're NOT your employees. ZDaemon is based on OUR effort and OUR dime. We will not be pushed around by people who think they can come to OUR place and dictate terms.

Forget me. Forget Ladna. You owe your damn community publicly available source. If someone makes a legit fork and the community packs up and leaves you behind, that's your fault for being a complete shitheel, not theirs.

I don't understand this whole thing - is this over someone not releasing their source code?

Why doesn't the author just release it? I see absolutely no harm in doing that. What does Zdaemon have to lose? If there's code in their that wasn't GPL then OOPS, big deal, it's not like someone's gonna freak out - it just gets removed. I'm sure someone here would help in getting all of the source to fall under the appropriate license, even if parts if it are not. It's not like people are going to jail or anything. Stop worrying about your pride if that's the issue here, even if you swore that it wasn't like this or that and it turns out it was/wasn't, at least you were the bigger person and released it.

If it's just code that was written that they don't want shared...that's kind of selfish. Especially with a port like Zdaemon - who cares if other ports utilize the code? Zdaemon has been so big for multiplayer for so many years it's not like competition will be taken away because they take X feature - players won't care about that. They will care about what's fun for them regardless. And Zdaemon's been around so long at this point that probably won't change.

I mean, what does the author have to lose at this point? Is it REALLY that big of a deal to keep it rather than share it?

Chu said:

I mean, what does the author have to lose at this point? Is it REALLY that big of a deal to keep it rather than share it?

Kilgore already listed four reasons why the team doesn't want to open the source code. It's those points which need to be challenged for this to happen.

Not only that, but what if ZDaemon contains proprietary code which can't be distributed as source?

Personally I like that it's closed source, it adds more mystery and surprises to the port.

AlexMax said:

This is complete nonsense. Mathematics itself may not be copyrightable, but a specific computerized implementation of solving a non-trivial math problem can indeed be covered under a license.

Please look at vectors.cpp again. It's relatively trivial math. There are only so many ways to write a Vector multiplication routine. Perhaps it's grown since RH included it in zdoom 1.23, but that's inconsequential to this discussion.

Also, please find me a case of US copyright law where any implementation of math (not a model, but math) can be copyrighted or licensed. If it exists, they should have sued again.

It's like trying to claim a copyright on a function like this:

int sum_array(int *in_arr, int arr_size) {
  int sum = 0;
  for(int ix = 0; ix < arr_size; ++ix) {
    sum += in_arr[ix];
  }
  return sum;
}

Granted, vector math is more complex, but it's still math.

Humanbones
No more classier than banning someone for saying something on a completely different IRC network.

Of course... my bad. So if I say in a public place (here for example) that you're a whiny, slimy little cocksucker, we will still be friends since I didn't say it on YOUR forum. Right? ROFLMAO

Commissar Alexmax
Talking to you on more amicable terms doesn't really change your responses, so why bother.

Yeah. I remember how friendly you and your comrades were at first. Let's see:

• Chairman Ralphis sending a complaint to ID to kickstart the anti-ZD revolution
• Commissar Alexmax spreads the word on Romero's forum
• Apparently Alexmax was not done on that forum
• Then someone says something positive about ZDaemon at ESReality, but don't worry: the commissar saves the day again
• And the same thing at the Steam forums...

That's some serious butthurt my man. You should see a doctor about it.

Oh... and I guess I'm overreacting as you usually claim. Or I should take my medication as you often say as well; or I should croak as our friend Humanbones says. Right.

Hey, we don't have to be friends. I am capable of having a perfectly normal and civil conversation, you aren't. So anyway.. lets look at the facts: the ZDaemon community was thriving before Raider took some sort of sabbatical and you came in and started being the real community leader. You lead the community by banning and exiling a large portion of people who gave a shit. I can't count on 10 hands how many people left because they were fed up with you. That is a fact. Meanwhile, *somehow* other doom communities flourished (and still continue to do so). It must be those FUD spreaders, right?

Nobody started an anti ZDaemon campaign. If anything it was an anti Kilgore campaign. They were all fed up with watching you ruin the community. Again, the bubble says "FUD FUD FUD FUD FUD" but those of us outside the bubble (everyone else) know what is really true. You really can't honestly believe that you are a victim, can you? Someone let the pitbull loose and that was the end of it. It is really no surprise that your playerbase has been reduced to people who can't speak english well enough to understand just how nuts you really are.

Kilgore said:

Of course... my bad. So if I say in a public place (here for example) that you're a whiny, slimy little cocksucker, we will still be friends since I didn't say it on YOUR forum. Right? ROFLMAO

You're kidding right? That's no reason to ban someone, just because you don't like them. People constantly flame Zandronum, me, and my peers and guess what- they're still welcome to the port! Your problem is you have to be the law where you don't belong. That you have to know things that don't involve you. And if you keep this up then everyone will end up banned from ZDaemon because sooner or later, quotes will be taken out of context and even your friends will say stuff behind your back. And perhaps the most ironic thing is you comparing others to nazis. You seriously need to grow thick skin and stop trying to make people pay for every single goddam thing they do.

Kilgore said:

Of course... my bad. So if I say in a public place (here for example) that you're a whiny, slimy little cocksucker, we will still be friends since I didn't say it on YOUR forum. Right? ROFLMAO


Yeah. I remember how friendly you and your comrades were at first. Let's see:

• Chairman Ralphis sending a complaint to ID to kickstart the anti-ZD revolution
• Commissar Alexmax spreads the word on Romero's forum
• Apparently Alexmax was not done on that forum
• Then someone says something positive about ZDaemon at ESReality, but don't worry: the commissar saves the day again
• And the same thing at the Steam forums...

That's some serious butthurt my man. You should see a doctor about it.

Oh... and I guess I'm overreacting as you usually claim. Or I should take my medication as you often say as well; or I should croak as our friend Humanbones says. Right.

Kilgore said:

Of course... my bad. So if I say in a public place (here for example) that you're a whiny, slimy little cocksucker, we will still be friends since I didn't say it on YOUR forum. Right? ROFLMAO

Why should he have to be your friend to play ZDaemon on public servers? Who cares? I don't ban everyone who has ever talked shit about me or Odamex from my servers. Metal doesn't masterban everyone who ever talked shit about her from Zandronum. What is your problem?

That's some serious butthurt my man. You should see a doctor about it.

I don't get it. Are those links supposed to justify anything or support any sort of argument?

HumanBones
Nobody started an anti ZDaemon campaign. If anything it was an anti Kilgore campaign.

Ding ding ding. The port is fine. Most of the community is pretty cool too. Most of the admins and developers are perfectly fine human beings!

You, on the other hand, have got to learn not to punish every single slight against you or the port. If you don't listen to me, at least listen to the people who run the most successful multiplayer doom port, they will tell you the same thing. In fact, they have!

Kilgore said:

Of course... my bad. So if I say in a public place (here for example) that you're a whiny, slimy little cocksucker, we will still be friends since I didn't say it on YOUR forum. Right? ROFLMAO


Yeah. I remember how friendly you and your comrades were at first. Let's see:

• Chairman Ralphis sending a complaint to ID to kickstart the anti-ZD revolution
• Commissar Alexmax spreads the word on Romero's forum
• Apparently Alexmax was not done on that forum
• Then someone says something positive about ZDaemon at ESReality, but don't worry: the commissar saves the day again
• And the same thing at the Steam forums...

That's some serious butthurt my man. You should see a doctor about it.

Oh... and I guess I'm overreacting as you usually claim. Or I should take my medication as you often say as well; or I should croak as our friend Humanbones says. Right.

Just an FYI, you're not doing yourself any favors in the eyes of a neutral observer. Especially that first link; very valid criticism. Something like that never should have made it into the getwad program in the first place.

You know, I got banned from #zdplayers for pointing out that AF-Domains had control over the bot but that was years ago and I really don't care at this point. And even if I don't feel like I should really get involved with this at all I think I'll just try to be the voice of reason here:

Kilgore said:

Yeah. I remember how friendly you and your comrades were at first. Let's see:

• Chairman Ralphis sending a complaint to ID to kickstart the anti-ZD revolution
• Commissar Alexmax spreads the word on Romero's forum
• Apparently Alexmax was not done on that forum
• Then someone says something positive about ZDaemon at ESReality, but don't worry: the commissar saves the day again
• And the same thing at the Steam forums...

That's some serious butthurt my man. You should see a doctor about it.

Allow me to ask you a few questions and please don't just answer with insults. Given how you're the big guy in charge of one of the most important doom ports in history (big fucking deal lol), I understand to an extent you prefer to have total control over what everyone does and says. But have you ever thought, have you ever considered, have you ever theorized that since almost everyone outside of (and from my knowledge, even within) ZDaemon seems to hate the administration with a passion, then maybe, just MAYBE it's the zdaemon administration's fault? Do you honestly think they are all here on a holy crusade to restore the mightness of the true john romero iconofsinness truest purest doomboomteamtnt multiplayer ctf IDL conspiracies? No not really. I really think that even if you didn't agree with people, you at least tried to take what they say into consideration then MAAAAAAYBE you could, you know, see way less bashing (it will still be present in one form or another, but you can't avoid that, just like how nobody else could)

Unless, of course, you actually enjoy spreading drama around and banning everyone (refer to Ladna's "we get boners whenever we ban people, and we couldn't do that as much if there were a fork"). That might very well be the case (and it's not like I haven't seen that before) but as I said I don't know since I'm not really that much familiar with ZDaemon.

I don't mean this to be a topic about Zandronum but we got a lot of shit as well, both by the community and by outsiders. We had all the dramas about Carnevil and the various post splittings and whatnot. We did enter into arguments with them, but in the end, what did we do? We opened a section on the forums where people can complain about stuff they don't like and we even have an IRC channel entirely dedicated to that. To solve problems banning everyone left and right and closing everything is NOT the answer - and this isn't just in doom but applies everywhere. Being more open is. I know for a fact. And while we might still be annoyed by the various bronies costantly at least we're at peace with the world.

I'm not saying ZDaemon should become Zandronum #2 or that anyone should become the almighty big dictator of zdaemon that overthrew the heretic Kilgore but seriously, I think you really should at least TRY to approach these situations with a more open mind. Try to solve issues instead of assuming everyone is always wrong and you're always right.




back to posting hibernation I go. I'm not even sure if I left a few parts in this post unfinished but whatever, you get the idea. Peace.