Blake Stone Vs Wolfenstein engines?

I am aware that the Blake Stone source code and Wolfenstein source code are similar (Blake Stone being based off of Wolfenstein's) and was wondering what are the actual differences between the two? I tried searching on google but all I could find out about it was something to do with elevator's and that the source code is lost, was wondering if anyone could help, please?

On the top of my head I can remember greater interactivity with the environment (food dispensers, info terminals), textured ceiling/floors, and sort of distance-based fading/darkening (?). It sure looked more sophisticated, just like a stepping stone between Wolf3D and Doom (just like ROTT, which however came AFTER Doom). However, after the novelty of improved looks faded out, you were left with the same ultra-simplistic gameplay of Wolf3D. In hindsight, the environment look uncannily similar to the Doom RPG's, to the point where I wonder if some textures were recycled...

So what the hell, the Blake Stone source code is lost? Damn companies, don't they have multiple copies of their source code in their networks?

printz said:

So what the hell, the Blake Stone source code is lost? Damn companies, don't they have multiple copies of their source code in their networks?

Being it 1992, I imagine their "network" was some long-haired, neck-bearded dude saving his work on floppies every night. The multiple copies? A different box of floppies ;-) The network? Someone took one of those boxes into some basement, where they were probably thrown out during some inventory liquidation 1 decade later.

The source for Corridor7 and Operation Body Count (though this was based off the Corr7 source) are also presumed lost.

In the case of Strife, since the entire company closed down, they sold off their servers - you know, those expensive-ass NeXT boxes you needed to use the DOOM engine dev tools - and that included the ones they had their source code on >___>

Something similar may have happened when Apogee started liquidating their various assets :P

Apparently the Blake Stone source is not lost, but it doesn't look like we'll be seeing it any time soon.

Of course I'm sure it would be easier to reverse engineer than the Strife code.

From the top of my head, here are the differences:

-Blake Stone features textures for the floors and ceilings, while Wolfenstein doesn't.

-Blake Stone has more floor codes for greater control over which guards get to wake up and which get to remain inactive upon hearing the player's gunshot.

-Blake Stone features teleporters.

-Blake Stone features programmable vending machines for healing items.

That's all I can remember. Hope it helps.

Blzut3 said:

Apparently the Blake Stone source is not lost, but it doesn't look like we'll be seeing it any time soon.

Of course I'm sure it would be easier to reverse engineer than the Strife code.

I would imagine it being easier to reverse engineer for some but it's going to prove difficult for me. I have the Wolfenstein source code on this laptop on here (if not, then it's not much trouble to get) so that's a start, I guess. Thanks for telling me the differences so far.

EDIT:

188DarkRevived said:

From the top of my head, here are the differences:

-Blake Stone features textures for the floors and ceilings, while Wolfenstein doesn't.

-Blake Stone has more floor codes for greater control over which guards get to wake up and which get to remain inactive upon hearing the player's gunshot.

-Blake Stone features teleporters.

-Blake Stone features programmable vending machines for healing items.

That's all I can remember. Hope it helps.

Thanks, it certainly does.

Nobody ever remembers the automap, informants, grenade launcher, or ability to backtrack through levels. There were two types of force-field walls too: damaging and non-damaging. Just another stupid reason to look for switches and pushwalls.

Aliotroph? said:

Nobody ever remembers the automap, informants, grenade launcher, or ability to backtrack through levels. There were two types of force-field walls too: damaging and non-damaging. Just another stupid reason to look for switches and pushwalls.

Wait, Blake Stone had an automap? Thanks for the list. I never got a chance to play Blake Stone when I was younger.

Some videos on YT also comfirm that it has a distance-mapped lighting system, not very dissimilar from Doom's. With a proper level + location, plus a weapon and HUD mod for Doom, it could be hard to tell a Doom screenshot from a Blake Stone one, something which would be much harder or even impossible with Wolf3D (unless you somehow turn off the colormaps...)

Springy said:

Wait, Blake Stone had an automap? Thanks for the list. I never got a chance to play Blake Stone when I was younger.

Yeah, like I said, nobody ever remembers the automap. This is probably because it sucked.

It never occurred to any of us to link the Blake Stone site. There are a couple things listed there that haven't made our list.

The shareware version is also there. Fire it up in DOSbox and have a look for yourself.

@Maes: I remember somebody doing a Blake Stone TC for Doom. It It really did look very similar.

Aliotroph? said:

Nobody ever remembers the automap, informants, grenade launcher, or ability to backtrack through levels. There were two types of force-field walls too: damaging and non-damaging. Just another stupid reason to look for switches and pushwalls.

Indeed. Those memories all come back now. I forgot to mention them cause I was in a hurry when I typed that last post. >_<;
If it wasn't for the automap I wouldn't have been able to get 100% secrets ratio.
As for the informants... the only use they had was giving tokens for the vending machine. Asides from this they were absolutely pointless. Giving the player blatantly obvious hints about the environmental hazards and just getting into the crossfire.

And also, on top of all those features, don't forget the green-uniformed troopers with an AI smart enough for deceiving the player into thinking that they've been killed, and then ambushing from behind when the player walks away.
This same feature was also found in Rise Of The Triad with the Lightning Guards.

Maes said:

Some videos on YT also comfirm that it has a distance-mapped lighting system, not very dissimilar from Doom's. With a proper level + location, plus a weapon and HUD mod for Doom, it could be hard to tell a Doom screenshot from a Blake Stone one, something which would be much harder or even impossible with Wolf3D (unless you somehow turn off the colormaps...)

This is relevant: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1125053#post1125053

Blzut3 said:

Apparently the Blake Stone source is not lost, but it doesn't look like we'll be seeing it any time soon.

Of course I'm sure it would be easier to reverse engineer than the Strife code.

Depends on a lot. Shadowcaster is based on technology in the same family and I basically cannot follow its binary code at all - it uses too many tables of function pointers to drive the entire logic of the game - not to mention its crazy form of AI scripting for which there's absolutely no data.

So in its case, having been based loosely on the Wolf engine is actually very little help. What few landmarks remain from its origin are not enough to interpolate the differences.

Now, *if* it shares enough code in common with RoTT, you have Wolf3D source on one end, and RoTT on the other. In that case, you have a very good chance to figure out all of the core engine routines, and from there hack your way into the customizations that are unique to Blake Stone itself. And again, it depends on how they programmed it. If it's function-pointer spaghetti, all bets are off :P

Aliotroph? said:

Yeah, like I said, nobody ever remembers the automap. This is probably because it sucked.

Sucked? What an arbitrary statement. Don't tell me the Doom one, with its lack of real time update is better.

printz said:

Sucked? What an arbitrary statement. Don't tell me the Doom one, with its lack of real time update is better.

Blake Stone AOG's automap plonked a window in the middle of the screen with not overly fitting graphics (it used Blakes Debug mode graphics, which were a little out of place against the rest of the games graphics IMO) and paused the game, which can be a bit jarring.

In Planet Strike, the automap was moved onto the hud and didn't pause the game.

Don't get me wrong though; both Blake Stone's are great games.

Regarding the comment to do with a Blake Stone TC, I think there were two in production one to do with Afa doomer and one by the name of Blake Ztone I think it was called.

Yet another memory of this game came rushing back to me today... Meeting the spawners of the high-energy plasma aliens for the very very first time on the third floor of the STAR Institute!
Those spawners had the exact same effect on me as the Icon Of Sin from DOOM2, because I was absolutely clueless to the fact that they're programmed to spawn those monsters infinitely. I was focusing on destroying the spawners and kept wasting all of my ammunition on them, even suiciding several times with the missile launcher weapon.
Eventually, I did realize the cruelty of the programmers, of course. But still, that was quite an experience.

Anyways, to wrap things up, comparing Blake Stone to Wolfenstein 3D is the same as comparing Hexen to DOOM. It's a totally parallel topic in every sense.

Blake Stone is a good example of a non-id game with poor balance of weapons or enemies.

printz said:

Blake Stone is a good example of a non-id game with poor balance of weapons or enemies.

0_o Eh? It was actually very satisfying and manageable to beat without any cheating compared to DOOM3 or any of those modern COD thingys.

Blake Stone is great. The 'grenade launcher' is one of the first weapons in FPS games that actually needed some effort to be used effectively, and on the highest difficulty setting some of the early levels have secrets that simply force you to visit other floors first to get better weapons and more ammo to be able to clear them. A real step up in the gameplay department.

Only thing that annoyed me were the infinite electric monster generators.

Belial said:

Only thing that annoyed me were the infinite electric monster generators.

Speaking of annoyances, anyone know of any bugs in the Blake Stone engine that could do with some serious fixing?