Doom 2 Tournament at QuakeCon

Quasar said:

"DOOM tournament cancelled on account of massive source port flamewar."

Not really, but seriously, come on people.

I'd be nervous about using programs based on educational-use-only, no-commercial-exploitation licenses at any event that has an entry fee, though. Depending on the individual license terms, it may or may not be legal. Zandronum and ZDaemon are both burdened with such licenses, whereas Odamex is free software. Perhaps something to consider.

There's no entry fee though.

DevastatioN said:

But being so close to the tournament date, with no details announced, and the BYOC already sold-out it seems, what options are there? I see the site says that normally all walk-ins can find a seat, but is this always the case?

Usually the way it goes is they announce the basic details and then a month or so beforehand they'll pump out the map pool and game settings and all of that, but with this being a Doom II tournament there is no telling. As for the site claiming walk-ins being able to find a seat, as from my experience of last year THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE as a matter of fact I was there a day BEFORE Quakecon as usual, and there was absolutely zero chance for me to get a seat. There were people who waited in line with their machines for almost the entire con only to be told the night before the end of the event that "Hey sorry no more room, no one is going to be clearing up before it ends either". They did how ever profoundly apologize and explain that next year(this year) would have a much larger space for general attendees.
tl;dr: wait another month for info, show up a day early for Quakcon, there are a lot of walk-ins and the space is VERY limited.

DemonSphere said:

Usually the way it goes is they announce the basic details and then a month or so beforehand they'll pump out the map pool and game settings and all of that, but with this being a Doom II tournament there is no telling. As for the site claiming walk-ins being able to find a seat, as from my experience of last year THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE as a matter of fact I was there a day BEFORE Quakecon as usual, and there was absolutely zero chance for me to get a seat. There were people who waited in line with their machines for almost the entire con only to be told the night before the end of the event that "Hey sorry no more room, no one is going to be clearing up before it ends either". They did how ever profoundly apologize and explain that next year(this year) would have a much larger space for general attendees.
tl;dr: wait another month for info, show up a day early for Quakcon, there are a lot of walk-ins and the space is VERY limited.

That's unfortunate, especially people like me who need to book plane tickets and make arrangements. There's going to be a strong correlation to how late they announce information vs the strength and value of the tournament.

Either way, this might not be a BYOC tournament anyway, so we should be good. But I'd rather do more than just play the tournament if I'm at QCon! I'd like to play some Quake, and in the Quake Live Open event if there is one.

DevastatioN said:

That's unfortunate, especially people like me who need to book plane tickets and make arrangements. There's going to be a strong correlation to how late they announce information vs the strength and value of the tournament.

Either way, this might not be a BYOC tournament anyway, so we should be good. But I'd rather do more than just play the tournament if I'm at QCon! I'd like to play some Quake, and in the Quake Live Open event if there is one.

Oh it's for sure a great event to go to if you're a fan of iD! There should be an open QL tourny which I participate in as well and it's very much fun, and I'm sure this DooMII tournament will not be a BYOC thing, those are usually handled by a completely different group of people. The keynotes and other vendors they have there are a blast, the entire event is a lot of good fun, good people, and there are some cool places to see in Dallas while you're there. Plus you've got some pretty awesome food there.

Oh I definitely want to go, and have for a few years. But it's a very busy year, so the only reason I would go is for a good DooM 2 tournament.

So I mean, the announcement of this tournament just makes it so I basically have no choice but to bump every other plans I have, and go. This is why I'm waiting for the announcement.

I think other people are waiting as well, as many won't bother going without knowing what the DooM 2 actually is.

Nice that the thread got surgically cleaned after it became derailed so badly. Disregarding the drama, some valuable info about the ports was lost because of the split that might be relevant to form a proper opinion. So just for the record the 'complete' thread.

Regarding port choice I wonder why nobody mentioned Doom BFG edition. Given Zenimax' and Id softwares affiliation with Quakecon it seems like a logical step to use it since it is the latest official classic Doom release straight from id and would probably give the BFG edition more exposure and boost the sales as well which makes sense from a marketing pov. Using some older IWAD version with a fanmade port would be like publicly declaring their latest release to be a failure.

Quasar said:

I'd be nervous about using programs based on educational-use-only, no-commercial-exploitation licenses at any event that has an entry fee, though.

Ladna said:

It's not just entry fees, it's selling swag and advertising too

Like kristus said there is no fee. Mechandise though ... nobody is forced to buy a shirt if they want to play doom. It is completely unrelated. If instead of shirts there is a vending machine with softdrinks in the building, would you consider that a problem as well? I think you are reading a bit too much into the Doom Source License.
Let us assume for a moment that there is a problem with the commercial use clause. QuakeCon is directly affiliated with ZeniMax and IdSoftware ... so should they sue themselves for commercially exploiting their own game? If a DSL licensed port were used its authors would neither directly nor indirectly reiceive any money just because people play it at QuakeCon.
If you still think there is a problem with the license someone should maybe tell Jace Hall about it.

Blzut3 said:

I'm not sure the non-commercial clause is applicable to tournaments. Strictly speaking the EULA for almost every game includes a non-commercial clause, but they're used for tournaments nonetheless.

Agreed. If you think there is a problem with the non-commercial use clause in the DSL then you need to realize that the Doom EULA which covers the games media (doom2.wad) does not allow commercial exploitation as well.

ID SOFTWARE LICENSE:
You must treat the Software like any other copyrighted material

Obviously you are not allowed to commercialy exploit someone elses copyrighted material.

Activision license:
The term "Software" includes all elements of the Software such as data files ...
3. Prohibitions with Regard to Software. You, whether directly or indirectly,
shall not do any of the following acts: ...
f. in any other manner and through any medium whatsoever commercially exploit
the Software or use the Software for any commercial purpose;

Oops! So QuakeCon will have to use Freedoom it seems since the EULA uses a similar clause like the DSL license.

Activision license:
Permitted New Creations. ...
ID grants to you the non-exclusive and limited right to create for the
Software (except any Software code) your own modifications (the "New
Creations") which shall operate only with the Software (but not any demo,
test or other version of the Software).
You shall not rent, sell, lease, lend, offer on a pay-per-play basis or otherwise
commercially exploit or commercially distribute the New Creations.

Interpreting the DSL like Quasar and Ladna did would mean that QuakeCon cannot use DOOM2.WAD or any PWAD unless freedoom is used.

Quasar said:

Usually based on the fact that all the participants have paid their license fee for the game, and the game sold with its ability to netplay as an advertised included feature of what you were getting for that payment.

Meaning they accepted the Doom EULA.

Quasar said:

IANAL, of course, but it seems to me that the terms of commercial exploitation could be construed to include public exhibition and event organization where the product is a central attraction.

This would have the consequences i described above and not allow the usage of doom2.wad at all.

Ladna said:

... and no tournament administrator has to worry about banlists or whether Player Registration works or not.

Xaser said:

ZDaemon requires registration to a server not all all participants can access.

ZDaemon requires no account registration for private servers. Since QuakeCon is a LAN party and you surely don't want random people
from all over the internet to mess with the games, a private server would be used and won't need user authentication nor load any banlists.

I get your point but it's not id/ZeniMax that would be concerned. Their code and Raven's code are available under free licenses. It's stuff like Ken Silverman's code that isn't.

EDIT: Ken himself says he doesn't mind. That would just leave the sound library. I'm not going to even ask them but I doubt they care either :P

DemonSphere said:

As for the site claiming walk-ins being able to find a seat, as from my experience of last year THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE...

I figured this was the case for most folks. I had no trouble at all getting in but thinking back on it, I'm pretty sure I accidentally wandered into the room when I wasn't supposed to and got lucky nobody saw me do it. Whoops. D:

On a maybe-ironic note, I ended up completely missing the folks I was meaning to catch up with though, and then later that night my truck got stolen and I couldn't attend the rest of the con. That was a weird weekend.


To un-hijack (byjack?) the topic, I do wonder how the (lack of?) seating will affect the tourney organization. If it's not BYOC, it better damn well allow me to use my own mouse. I can't properly pretend to play well without it. D:

Xaser said:

To un-hijack (byjack?) the topic, I do wonder how the (lack of?) seating will affect the tourney organization. If it's not BYOC, it better damn well allow me to use my own mouse. I can't properly pretend to play well without it. D:

You're allowed to bring your own mouse and keyboard and mouse pad, they just want you to play on their machines. You're given time to get everything setup.
As for walking into a room, you're pretty much allowed to roam where ever you'd like, the only area they ask you to stand back from is the tournament area, it's behind curtains and stuff, other than that you're allowed to walk around the BYOC and check everything out.

.

You beat me to it, Quasar.

Phenex mailed:
Hello Ken!
This years QuakeCon will feature a classic Doom Tournament. So far it is not decided what port will be used to play. Some of the possible doom ports use portions of the build licensed slope code. Some users had the concern that these ports could not be used due to the non commercial usage clause of the build license. QuakeCon has no entry fee so they would not gain any money from people that want to play doom. Does it matter that QuakeCon sells merchandise? Do you think there is a problem if a game that uses parts of the build code is used for a QuakeCon tournament? What if an online video stream of the event is shown and there are ads on that website?

Ken Silverman mailed:
> .. QuakeCon .. Doom Tournament .. build licensed slope code ..
I have no problem with a Doom port that uses some of my code being used at a free tournament.
-Ken S.

Regarding the FMOD lib:

FMOD license:
FMOD 3.75: FMOD may not be used in a commercial product, or product that directly or indirectly receives income with the aid of the FMOD sound library, without a commercial license from Firelight Technologies.
FMODEX: IF YOUR PRODUCT IS NOT INTENDED FOR COMMERCIAL GAIN AND DOES NOT
INCLUDE THE FMOD LIBRARY FOR RESALE, LICENSE OR OTHER COMMERCIAL
DISTRIBUTION, THEN USE OF FMOD IS FREE OF CHARGE.

Product would be the port in this case. Does not sound like there is a problem using it for QuakeCon either.

About the QuakeCon Doom Tournament in general. Is it a confirmed fact that they do not know what port will be used or was that just assumed since no details were provided? I can't imagine that they would announce it without having that sorted out beforehand.

We've started a bit of a tally to see who is going/who is thinking about going. It's mostly IDL people, but you can have your name added to the list if you like:
http://forums.intldoomleague.com/index.php?topic=907.0

Heh, I'm a little surprised at the amount of interest at the tournament, but it's cool that people are thinking about coming out. (and believe me I'm already familiar with bits and pieces of all the drama that has happened within the community)

I can't give out a ton of details, but I can say that it is an open tournament, so the rules will have to be a balance between casual and hardcore duel (we can't run duels without timelimit in such a time-constrained environment). We do want to keep it close to the original game running on a PC, we'll likely end up on one of the client/server ports. (D2 in BFG on the PC doesn't do multi) You'll never win everyone over with rule choices and maps, though, especially with the way some of the ports have modified the original game, but I think we can get most of the way there.

I would definitely encourage everyone to come out to QCon, especially to hang out with other people in the community, which was why I originally just mentioned local/semi-local in my first post. I'd love to give out full details on everything, but that kind of stuff is above me.

Sounds awesome.

so the rules will have to be a balance between casual and hardcore duel

Have you got ideas as to the specific settings to achieve this or is that yet to be decided?

sponge said:
[the rules will have to be a balance between casual and hardcore duel[/B]

In that case let me plug the game settings we run for ZDDL! We allow features that come standard in any fps nowadays (crosshairs, ability to pickup a weapon without switching to it, forcing the respawn of an opponent after a certain time inactive in the map, actors who’s height is the height of their sprite instead of infinity, all spawn points functioning properly (a bug in the original doom causes certain spawns to be completely silent), etc.) while still keeping the original oldschool gamestyle (no jumping, no mouselook). These settings are much more welcoming for people who are new to the game and also preferred by many (not all) players who still play today. There is a lot of drama in the community about most anything, but the zddl settings get my personal vote. It’s been the competitive standard in North America for the past decade in both 1v1 (ZDDL) and ctf (IDL). The European scene is a bit different and often uses settings absent of the mentioned features or bug fixes for their tournaments and leagues. Odamex does fully support the zddl/idl game settings btw.

correction: the jkist settings are not used by IDL, because IDL is fully newschool (jumping, mouselook).

i'll give jkist that PWO (aka weapons don't switch on pickup) is probably a better option for new maps and new players, however you'd draw some criticism if you tried to use it on oldschool duel maps (as jkist does, heh).

actors (not) being infinitelly tall may need some consideration on your part - will your maps be vertical? is infinitely tall rocket splash good or bad with them? it may be confusing at first, but then again, it adds a tactical element to using the rocket launcher or blocking the opponent with your own body from under a cliff.

dew said:

correction: the jkist settings are not used by IDL, because IDL is fully newschool (jumping, mouselook).

Ah yeah, sorry I was thinking of the other settings when I wrote that and forgot about mouselook and jumping. Dew is correct mouselook and jumping are usually used for ctf and not 1v1.

As far as 1v1 goes, there are pretty much two ways its traditionally played: 1) oldschool style with some basic fps features and bug fixes added or 2) a complete emulation of the original game. In general north america uses 1) and europe uses 2). Odamex does support both styles fyi.

Since it looks like there's a number of skilled doom players who are going to QuakeCon I've updated my document with some pointers on how to configure an equivalent Odamex Oldschool server. The biggest takeaway is that Odamex supports loading multiple wads at the same time, so you don't really need a compilation like you do with Zandronum (though one exists if you prefer).

I've also updated my suggested map picks as well: moo2d instead of pobla8.

This should be quite fun to watch, provided people record it live! I personally don't mind much which port it will be played on, considering each of them is better-suited for different scenarios, and we don't know for sure what the tourney hosts feel more comfortable with. I just hope the port of choice doesn't give out any bugs that could hinder the gaming moments.

Hi folks, the full details and rules have finally been announced for anyone who is still undecided and able to make it out on such short notice:

http://www.quakecon.org/2013/07/get-registered-for-this-years-quakecon-tournaments/
http://zmi-cdnstatic.s3.amazonaws.com/bethblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/QuakeCon_2013_20th_Anniversary_Doom_Challenge_Rulebook1.pdf

"first come, first served, on-site registration only"

This is pretty much going to rule everyone out except for those few who are lucky enough to live in the area, unless someone's feeling exceptionally brave and/or wants to come to the con anyway. This is also assuming we even make it on-site on time to register and don't have things like jobs to attend to on a Thursday morning. :(

Good to see Odamex on the roster, if nothing else. The FFA feeder is a bit odd but the duel bracket seems fair. Not that I'm an expert, but still. :P

great news everyone!

i got confirmation: Jehar will be there and do the shoutcast for doom. ddk said it.

Does anyone know if there is some webpage featuring ladders, registered players etc.?

Also, is it known already if some well-known Doom players will be present?

Patrol1985 said:

Also, is it known already if some well-known Doom players will be present?

jkist and Devastation are there and they're going for the win, of course.

Thanks for the info!

Are there some demos, or (preferably) youtube videos featuring them? I'd like to familiarize with them a little so I know what to expect.

the quakecon website was always a mess.

there is no online registration for d2 tournament
https://registration.quakecon.org/?page=tournaments

i guess today thursday, you wont see much of the ffa qualifier for doom in the stream. if there is only 1 stream for the games. it colidates with quakelive duell. but tomorrow the chances are high.
http://www.esreality.com/post/2456981/quakecon-2013-schedule-groups/

about links to past good games, that would be a great idea.

demos from both players can be found at the ZDDL site. they require ZDaemon for playback. as for youtube... well, i couldn't find much. here's one uploaded by dev himself.

Are there any VODs available? Whenever I turn the stream on they show QL duel / QL ca. Has the Doom 2 tournament been covered at all?

it wasnt covered on stream on day 1 and day 2. now we get the finals on day3, and vods.

lol i saw you in stream chat, why didnt you ask this there? :D

I'm seeing posts in the stream chat that the Doom finals will be streamed on the main stage at 7:00 CST today at http://www.twitch.tv/quakecon.

I'm also hearing that it might have semifinals up in half an hour or so. The Quake Live Clan Arena finals just ended.

EDIT: Yup, Doom confirmed to be coming up in just a few minutes

EDIT2: They're streaming it right now.

Man, I didn't realize online Doom 2 was so SSG-centric. I think the Doom 1 weapon balance would be a lot better. I mean, the Doom 1 SG is practically the same as Quake 3's shotgun already!