THT: Threnody - released!

last update june, 30/16
Final version:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/78zoxdeaycql7ls/TY45-15.wad

I just briefly checked out your map, didy and I'm really liking what I see so far! Of course it won't be rejected! :) I'll play it again tomorrow and get back to you.

Quick question didy/Chris (since you've seen it now) is this the same map as before? I liked that one. Is this like a retextured version with some stuff added?

Fonze said:

... is this the same map as before? I liked that one. Is this like a retextured version with some stuff added?

yes, exactly

Ah ok, sweet man. I look forward to seeing it's new look!

If there is some music lacking, I am the one that help!
And SFX!
And playtest!
And tips!
For Halderman!

Gustavo6046 said:

If there is some music lacking, I am the one that help!
And SFX!
And playtest!
And tips!
For Halderman!

Thank you. More testers are always more than welcome and feel free to post some music and we'll take it from there.

didy said:

I have choosen only TNT textures and I have given some tribute to Ty. The map is done but still in the testing phase. Please let me know if you think it fits to the project. If not, a rejection is no problem for me. Comments, especially those telling me what you dislike is appreciated. Thanks. Mapname: TY45-15, Download (resource needed, map01, boom):

http://www.mediafire.com/download/3adh7t3ihpteqby/TY45-15.wad

Spoiler

* S P O I L E R * READ THIS AFTER PLAYING THE MAP!
Explanations: At the end there are exactly 69 candles and for each year Ty was managing the archive there is a crafted, massive stone which symbolizes that his work strengthened the community. One stone remains unfinished.

Thank you so much for this map! It's a stunning looking map with a ton of moody atmosphere! You did a fantastic job converting it into something entirely different in terms of looks! That must have taken hours and hours to find all the right textures and getting them properly aligned. Respect!

The gameplay is a bit on the easy side. As usual, I played it on HMP and wasn't ever really challenged. There were a couple of tight situations i.e. the trap at the SSG, near the red key and of course on the roof top near the exit. The end fight was too strong for my to survive the first time, though, so you got me there. But I came back from the dead and got my revenge :)

I took a look on UV as well, and there's "only" 130 monsters. I believe even I could manage that ;) I think most people will find the level a tad too easy, especially if they find both Soulspheres, which isn't that hard. Adding some more opposition might be a solution, but that would perhaps mess too much with the atmosphere. Because, honestly, I kinda like the desolate feeling where you're constantly on your toes waiting for something to happen. Another way to make a bit more harsh on the player could be to replace some of the minor monsters with stronger ones like Chaingunners, Revenants and Pain Elementals. Not too many of course, just in a select few places, because let's face it, those are NOT three monsters we would want to overuse! ;) Some might think the pacing is a bit slow most of the time, but I think it's like a good movie that has its slow moments with tensions building up before the key events :)

Here's a list of things I noticed or thought about when playing the level:

• Secret in sector 111 was too hard for me to figure out. I need a hint that I need to press that wall. But perhaps the small window is the hint?
  
• Teleport sector 507 could perhaps have monster block lines. The same goes for sector 758. I found it a bit weird that especially the Demons released from sector 1119 could enter them and they didn't feel like leaving sector 110 once they landed there :)
  
• The Mancubus and his minions in sector 443 can be easily killed through the nearby window (sector 411 and 435) without posing any threat to the player.
  
• After having worked so hard it was a great feeling to finally getting the yellow key! That was a very fulfilling experience.... completely ruined by the all too easy red key :( That was very anti-climactic. I think the red key could be removed completely and replaced with a trigger that lowers sector 567 in another way instead.
  
• After finding the goodies in sector 1159 I kinda expected for something to happen. But nothing did. I like goodies, but this was just handed to me too easily. I din't even have to fight that much to get to them.
  
• The gate texture on linedef 5887 bleeds into the floor in prBoom+.
  
• A lot of the fighting on the roof top in sector 59 can be cheesed by simply jumping off the roof via i.e. sector 9 or 24 and then killing the monsters by standing on the area near sector 1155. Of course, this isn't something we'd do, because it's cowardly and honorless! :P
  

Feel free to tell me to elaborate on any of the above if you're in doubt of anything.

Regarding your spoiler: Wauw! That was a cool idea and very moving actually! What a stunning exit area and a brilliant tribute to Ty!

Anything else... hmm. Don't think so or maybe yes, because this bears repeating: Thank you so much for this awesome level!

I have two musics that I composed that might be of interest.
1 - 2

These sound straight from "Mock 2".

@chris
everything what you said about the difficulty setting like the PE, the pace and so on, is right and actually, were my thoughts, too. The thing is, that one have to cross the main road several times and once it is cleared, which is at the beginning, there is not much more to do. This leads to the effect that the pace is a bit slow, and yes, maybe it is a layout-gameplay issue. On the other hand I like it, when a map has got some parts where it is slowly going on because it increases the atmosphere and it is a good way to lead to a climax. It is just my taste, but I will think about this once more.

>..I played it on HMP and wasn't ever really challenged..; on UV... I think most people will find the level a tad too easy,..
Ok, ... I will see what I can do...

>Secret in sector 111 was too hard for me to figure out. I need a hint that I need to press that wall. But perhaps the small window is the hint?
There are even three hints: you can see the items before, the window, a different wall texture; added a forth one

>Teleport sector 507 could perhaps have monster block lines. The same goes for sector 758. I found it a bit weird that especially the Demons released from sector 1119 could enter them and they didn't feel like leaving sector 110 once they landed there :)
As for s507, yes, blocked now. As for s758 no. You don't like it, but I really like it, when it happens to teleport into a demon - different tastes. Btw sometimes the demon got out of the teleporter box.

>The Mancubus and his minions in sector 443 can be easily killed through the nearby window (sector 411 and 435) without posing any threat to the player.
Yes, this area does not deliver an attractive fight situation. I never thought about closing the window you mentioned. I will see what I can do.... (PE perhaps?)

>...I think the red key could be removed completely and replaced with a trigger that lowers sector 567 in another way instead.
Wow, Chris, what a cool idea, thanks. Will be changed.

>After finding the goodies in sector 1159 I kinda expected for something to happen. But nothing did. I like goodies, but this was just handed to me too easily. I din't even have to fight that much to get to them.
The weak point in this area is, that there is not much content (playability). I moved the backpack outside, near the tunnel (maybe one of the weapons too) and will think about the monster placement. Though, I somehow don't want to have a trap here.

>The gate texture on linedef 5887 bleeds into the floor in prBoom+.
fixed

>A lot of the fighting on the roof top in sector 59 can be cheesed by simply jumping off the roof via i.e. sector 9 or 24 and then killing the monsters by standing on the area near sector 1155. Of course, this isn't something we'd do, because it's cowardly and honorless! :P
:) Yes I was thinking the same, that's one reason why I left this area escapeable. And there is the archi... - so it could happen to run out of ammo if jumping off the roof before killing the archi.


Thanks for your impressions, helped me a lot.

one more thing, map name ist TY45-15 (not 25)

joe-ilya said:

These sound straight from "Mock 2".

Google says "mock" is an synonym of "donkey". But I feel like that is an appreciation of my music btw.

Gustavo6046 said:

I have two musics that I composed that might be of interest.
1 - 2

I hate to be the one, who constantly says no to you, but I'm going to have to do it again. While these midis aren't ear bleedingly bad, they aren't really up to par with the ones we already have either - or the levels they would be eventually paired with for that matter.

@didy
I'm glad I could help. That's the least I can do when someone dishes out a quality product like that for this project!

And perhaps I wasn't too clear about this, so let me just clarify: You don't necessarily have to look at those things I mentioned. They're just my observations, and they're completely subjective! It's your level, and if there's something you don't want to "fix", then please, by all means, don't. But I think you know that. Just making sure we're on the same level :)

I fixed the map name on the first page, sorry about that. It was after all early in the morning here, when I wrote it! ;)

Gustavo6046 said:

Google says "mock" is an synonym of "donkey". But I feel like that is an appreciation of my music btw.

Ilya is referring to this wad.

chris, everything is clear, everything is ok,... and yes same level... ;)

Plus I should have been composing for other projects!

Thanks to Chris Hansen for telling me about some texture misalignments on my map. Download here the latest version of "Fort Halderman".
If there is more misaligned textures here, they're probably left that way on purpose, unless they look really weird.

To Gothic: sounds good man! I'll take a look at this here shortly and get a demo out to you.



To Didy: What a fun, beautiful map!

I noticed that you have taken out many of the monsters that were in the previous version. Neither a bad nor a good thing to me; it is what it is. In a way, it was good, because health was tight in this level!

I really liked ammo levels, though, until close to the end when I had an abundance of shotgun shells, and likely bullets too. Plasma cells were few and far between, their amounts felt just right. Rockets were few as well, but given when the player acquires the gun they were just right. The plasma gun secret is unchanged, but I liked it before and still like it now. I don't remember the RL being where it was before, but I like where it is now. I suppose shotgun shells and bullets would have been much tighter had I not found the plasma gun and RL, so I'm sure that they were just right.

One thing this map really needed more of was health, though. At least in my opinion. Then again, my second run I stashed a SS, so perhaps it wasn't so bad. Armor was tough to come by until near the end, but if I remember correctly, both armors were secrets. Still, in the end it was a well-balanced, if unforgiving, map that was a ton of fun to play, with a few tough spots, but not so-much as to make demos tough to record. Times like this I appreciate that ;)

As I said, the map was beautiful. Oh man I love what you did with the place! Such a transformation to see... It looked really cool before, but now it looks just awesome. I love all the new little details you put in everywhere. Kinda missed seeing that cool wooden structure at the top of the lift to the roofs, but as cool as that was, all the stuff you did since the last time I played this map trumps it and then some. I also like the door-chain effects you got going on. Everything turned out great, man!

I liked some of the monster placement as it was before, stuff like the AV, now replaced with a rev, by the red key. But in a way, given the health and the new encounters you've cooked up, it was nice to have a couple spots toned down a bit. You did a great job placing the enemies in such a way as to give the player spatial advantages/disadvantages, such as the chaingunners by the barrel and the rev/manc/spectre trap that I got stuck in (stumped) for a bit. I noticed a few spots where infighting was easily accomplished and a few others where attempts would be punished through the players health. A couple manc's were in optimal positions to infight others, which is always something I like to see while the rev+manc trap was tough to induce infighting, though that could have been because it was a surprise.

Speaking of which, in the second demo here somewhere about 9:30 to about 11:30 were me trying to figure out the solution to exit that trap. Don't judge; I never claimed to be a genius ;p Lol nah, judge all you want ^^ It was a tough, tiny little thing to see, but in a way it made complete sense. (For the "why?" question)

The red key was a bit pointless wasn't it? Idk... on one hand you get the key then run right up to the door 50 feet away, but on the other hand I like just seeing the key up there and seeing the red door earlier in the level; it tells me that I will eventually go that way, rather than leaving it up to a question as to whether-or-not that extra area is just extra detailing or part of the level proper. That's reason enough for me to say keep it. It also serves as a great way to tell the player to go that direction after getting the key. I can see either way of looking at it, I just happen to lean towards liking the red key situation as-is this time.

The secrets were fairly easy to find, minus the first green armor. That one was a bit tough. The SS eluded me my very first time playing this back on the old version, but it's not a tough secret to find. That first green armor is unmarked, only common sense will take you to it. I know; who's got that anymore? Lol, jk. But I liked how it was done. Hell, I figured it out. The last secret I actually missed on the first run today, though it was easy to find on the second because I heard the released enemy. All-in-all I loved the secrets of this map!

I know I had other thoughts, but now they begin to slip my mind; what with me thinking more and more about other specific things. Feel free to ask any questions of me on what I've said or something I didn't say.

Anyway, here are 2 demos; the first is a fail; death at that rev+manc trap, while the second is a win at 16:11 I think. I guess it's a UV Max run, all monsters and secrets accounted for. I forget if I got all items.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsgfmijr7m1n902/TY45-15.zip?dl=0

Oh! I loved that ending part with the rocks and the TY name on the map! Really nice touch there. Quick question because I'm too lazy to count: are there 69 candles there? Or am I looking too much into this, heh.

Ok, give me a bit and I'll be back with some schtuff for Gothic. Then again, I'm starting to have trouble staying awake, so perhaps tomorrow for Gothic; we'll see.

@Fonze, Thanks for the demos and your comment. If you play with infighting at the end, than there is too much ammo left. But if the RL or plasma gun isn't picked up than ammo can be tight. I deleted the red key, there is a switch, now. It was an idea from Chris and I think it is better without the red key. Yes 69 candles, see spoiler-posting.
https://www.doomworld.com/vb/post/1524647
^also slightly updated version

No problem man: it was my pleasure!

I always play with monster infighting whenever I can, though with more deaths in a level I'll start doing it less (matching it more to available health/ammo and my own time constraints/impatience, heh.

I wound up coming to that same conclusion, though, because I know I tend to utilize most methods of ammo conservation (when I'm not shooting like I'm drunk). And also with the RL and plasma being kinda half-way secrets, or at least off the beaten path.

Ima be sad to see the red key go, just for its visual effect in the very beginning of the level, but I read what you and Chris talked about and it sounds cool. I'm sure the new version will be just as cool or even cooler.

Ah, I tried my hardest to skip and later forget that spoiler, since it wasn't spoiler-fied when I read it, but you know how our eyes are drawn to stuff we are not "supposed" to look at. Still, I must've done a good job because I only faintly remembered something about an unfinished column. I'm glad you made the candle count match his age in addition to the "unfinished" pillar homage. My only thing was that if I hadn't faintly remembered about the unfinished pillar, I wouldn't have put 2 and 2 together on that. Perhaps if it were taller? I'm not sure. Matter of fact, *just reread spoiler* I didn't remember that there was a stone for each year he maintained the archive as well. Huh, that's another cool thing. I'll have to go back and take another look at the room now, lol.

Great map once again!



And I haven't forgotten about Gothic's map; I'll make some time before bed tonight to check it out.

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I've got some Necrophagist midis that are sick as hell but have no idea how to put them up here. BTW, what happened to the church Doom tribute, or is this it?

Hi everyone!

I am making a remix map! Can you guess which one it's based on?

Keep in mind there is a ton of stuff that I have yet to finish. None of the screenshots show finished areas. I just hope I'm not too late to the party...

Man I have no idea what map that one is based on, but it looks good so far! I really like that third shot.

Also, you're not too late to the party; Chris has pushed the deadline back, so welcome aboard!

*Edit*
Man, this is shaping up to be one of my favorite/close-to-it megawads! I love all the maps so far. Just played Gothics new version; FDA

Got through the whole thing on the first try, though I couldn't remember most of the second half of the map, but it wound up being a 25 or 27 minute run. Some of that was me going for an extra look around at the end and obviously I didn't go the right way the first time, ever, heh. It took me a bit to find where to go before the yellow key, but that's my fault; no fault in the map for that. You'd think I'd've remembered that. Sorry for the long run.

I didn't notice many changes aside from a few less monsters/different encounters, but I don't remember my quick run through that second half after failing the demo last time. Still as far as looks this map is awesome.

The secrets were tough to find. I found 2, one I remembered from before and another I think I remembered at the end. I know where 2 others are but not how to get them and the last 2 elude me completely.

I like the fact that health was pretty forgiving in this map. Health starvation is very stressful and while I was low on health a few times, at least I knew there would be more later.

Ammo was done nicely. I appreciate when I have to change guns to account for ammo coming in type-waves. It keeps the gameplay much more interesting than simply SSG'ing out with a few rockets and a little plasma thrown in.

I really like the fact that this map doesn't give out a shotgun immediately. The gun progression in general was sweet, but I really like the fact that the first available shotgun was a secret and the next, mandatory shotgun was 2 areas away. It makes the secret mean just a bit more that way. Though I will say you gotta be quick to make it!

Also, no RL?! Blasphemy! Heh nah I actually didn't mind the lack of a RL in this map; it really wasn't necessary anyway. Though I wonder if one of those last two secrets was a RL...

I really like the red key/plasma gun conveyor belt, as well as that whole area, for that matter. I humped the forklift for a sec in the demo because it's the only way aside from shooting things that I know how to show love.

Nice job not over-using the power monsters here; I saw one AV I think and one SM. There were two or three full on barons, one of which had no real purpose being a baron. The difference between barons and HK's rests solely on the fact that the barons have more health; there is no added threat. The only real purposes for a baron over a HK are to absorb more ammo, to be a better meat shield, or to be a longer distraction. The last I think is the best reason to choose a baron. Now, the baron on the conveyor belt made total sense because of the nature of the fight; there needs to be a good mix of weaker and tougher monsters so the player must choose his targets for the best possible outcome, rather than just shooting what ever. There was a baron somewhere that I remember who was around a corner, alone. No monsters from behind, no timed-menaces, etc; it didn't make sense to me why he was chosen there, but if it was for the purpose of being an ammo sponge the problem then becomes the player asking himself, "why not skip him?"

Also, that PE in the storage room with the yellow lift... you can see in the demo how there was still a lack of pressure to give him time to do his magic. There was one or two more PE's I just ran straight up to and killed immediately with no other pressure around. Not saying that the ability for the player to run straight up and kill them immediately is a bad thing, just that I think there should be a bit more pressure in those situations, to make the player have to think and make a decision rather than going by the general rule of thumb.

I liked the helipad this time around, but I think it might be a bit better to put another manc in as a sentry on top of one of the boxes on the left as the player runs to the helipad. So the player runs up, sees the manc's to the right, then one teleports behind him as a sentry. You can see in the demo that three side-by-side is not very menacing, especially with the abundant cover of the boxes nearby. I took damage, but if it was really threatening I would have run back to the boxes by the SSG for cover. That would make one back there on one of those boxes really useful, as it would make less areas safe and make the encounter a bit more threatening. Or a PE or two, for that matter, would make the encounter much more tense.

A lot of the encounters in this map were fairly tame; given that and the lack of a RL, I'd say that this would make an excellent opener for this map set, or possibly a MAP02 (also given the number of maps we have at this point).

That was the main difference that I noted, though, was that some encounters were tamer than before. You can see a few times in the demo that I was heavily expecting a trap, but this map wasn't trap heavy. That was another (not bad) thing that added to its feeling of relative-tame-ness. Most monsters are in their places when you enter a room and the vast majority see the player immediately and pursue from the same general angle, barring the outside area.

Some of that may sound a bit negative, but it isn't meant to be. You make great maps and I love this map. It was a ton of fun to play, but I wouldn't mind it being just a bit more difficult. If you want it to be fairly easy still then perhaps you could balance it out with a few more stimpacks. As I said before, I think as-is this map would make a fantastic opener/MAP02 (perhaps just first episode if this thing accumulates enough to be a full-on megawad) for its difficuly, lack of a RL, and it looks great and would make a great first-impression to me! Awesome job here man!

Ashstrodamus said:

Just to throw my 2 cents in, I've got some Necrophagist midis that are sick as hell but have no idea how to put them up here. BTW, what happened to the church Doom tribute, or is this it?

Thanks for your interest! Might I suggest, that you send them in an e-mail to me and I'll post them here. Then, if people like them, they can freely use them for their level.

Surreily said:

Hi everyone!

I am making a remix map! Can you guess which one it's based on?

Spoiler

http://i64.tinypic.com/27y7ugz.jpg
As you can see, Doom Builder has chosen a very appropriate default wall texture for single-sided linedefs in this map.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2zyg6bt.jpg
The hell section will be greatly expanded, and some other areas will be moved here (it is a remix, not just a remake).

http://i66.tinypic.com/29ggxv6.jpg
My favorite room from the original map. Also, more of Doom Builder's fantastic default texture choice.

Keep in mind there is a ton of stuff that I have yet to finish. None of the screenshots show finished areas. I just hope I'm not too late to the party...

Looks really nice! Thanks for your interest in this project! I don't recognise the map it supposed to resemble, but then again, I'm not one of those living encyclopedia kinda guys ;)

Odd, I thought it was obvious from the first shot it's Mill :P

Eris Falling said:

Odd, I thought it was obvious from the first shot it's Mill :P

Maybe you got a correct answer. Speaking of MAP18 of TNT, I wonder which section was designed by Ty since most of parts were designed by Dario Casali. Still, I must say that remaking that level is a nice idea for this project.

Eris Falling said:

Odd, I thought it was obvious from the first shot it's Mill :P

Congratulations, you are correct!

antares031 said:

Speaking of MAP18 of TNT, I wonder which section was designed by Ty since most of parts were designed by Dario Casali. Still, I must say that remaking that level is a nice idea for this project.

Yep, I am aware that Ty only did about a quarter of the level, but which quarter... I am not sure. I'd love to know, as I want to hide a secret area in Ty's section. The wiki doesn't provide the answer, so does anyone here know what part Ty did?

Is anyone going to use soundtrack, "Legion of the lost remix" by Eris Falling? Because I might use that music for my next contribution. Really good remix, by the way.

This level is still work in progress:

Not that I'm aware, so feel free to use it. It would be preferable if we didn't overuse the few midis we have so far, but using them for something like two maps per midi would be OK, I think.

Ohh, and your map still looks pretty damn awesome! Makes me wanna make one in the same style! :)

Chipping away at it bit by bit. It's suffering the usual dobu™ curse of growing out of control the more I work on it, but I'm still trying to keep it a simple/easy E1 map (no boss monsters or manc/arach/AV). Oh, and stock textures only, because it allows me to experiment with wacky combinations, like DOORTRAK for trimming.