Carnage in Paris

Gez said:

No it's not a lie; and my sources aren't the US govt. Neither are they the Russian govt.

I hope one of your sources is not the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. It as not credibility. Most of its reports are inconsistent and the whole organisation is one guy that haven't been to Syria for ten years.

Gez said:

The Russians are lying at least as much as the Americans.

I agree with that. They are not always lying, but sometimes they prefer to hide information that's bad for them (which is not lying by definition). (e.g. You'll never hear on the Western media that people killed in airstrikes are civilians 90% of the time)

@axedoom1: Sorry if I repeat something already stated in your link. I'm on my phone and YouTube doesn't always cooperate.

@Gez: You are totally correct in stating Russian media is at least as biased as western sources. The thing of it is, we now have a head of state claiming to have satellite imagery proving collusion between isis and G20 nations.

zZaRDoZz said:

The thing of it is, we now have a head of state claiming to have satellite imagery proving collusion between isis and G20 nations.

He should be transparent and release the imagery so that the people could see. I guess he has the imagery of the US accidentally parachuting weapons and supplies to ISIS instead of the Kurdish forces. I've read it happens 80% of the times.

axdoom1 said:

He should be transparent and release the imagery so that the people could see. I guess he has the imagery of the US accidentally parachuting weapons and supplies to ISIS instead of the Kurdish forces. I've read it happens 80% of the times.

Getting a little too close to *Act of War* material here. You'll notice the blasting of isis tanker truck convoys wasn't important to anyone until after the G20 meeting, and then it was all 'road-of-death' stuff.

War without killing civilians is an illusion. If soldier would be shooting soldier in a desert or safe zone then war would have been irrelevant next to the non irrelevant pain which the friends and family of the soldiers would feel.

It is impossible to wage war without "war crimes" and civilian deaths or targets. By all standards the U.S. would be a highly criminal War Criminal for all they did after world war two. But they are not because they are big, strong, western, and pack a punch which could throw the globe into a new ice-age... While being "friends" of half the globe.

Its a matter of perspective.

Causing the death of civilians isn't necessarily a war crime. It's a war crime if you used excessive force (or imprecise weapons) to attack enemies in a populated civilian area, or if you deliberately attack civilians. It's also a war crime to attack enemy soldiers who are not a threat, for example wounded enemies being treated in a hospital, and you decide to just bomb the hospital to kill them, their doctors, and the other patients, spending over one hour there shooting rockets into the buildings and gunning down anyone who flees? You're definitely a war criminal.

Gez said:

Causing the death of civilians isn't necessarily a war crime. It's a war crime if you used excessive force (or imprecise weapons) to attack enemies in a populated civilian area, or if you deliberately attack civilians. It's also a war crime to attack enemy soldiers who are not a threat, for example wounded enemies being treated in a hospital, and you decide to just bomb the hospital to kill them, their doctors, and the other patients, spending over one hour there shooting rockets into the buildings and gunning down anyone who flees? You're definitely a war criminal.

Note: "war crimes" AND civilian deaths.

FireFish said:

It is impossible to wage war without "war crimes" and civilian deaths or targets

The very notion of written and unwritten laws describing legal and illegal warfare is kind of... ironic.

Edit:

Gez said:

You're definitely a war criminal.

After re- reading your post i must admit that i glanced over it too fast and assumed it to be a typical EE "agressive" counter... But yes. By all logic the U.S. is a "war criminal". But nothing is black and white in war. It is a matter of perspective, and trough the eyes of the west they are doing it for the better.

axdoom1 said:

I agree with that. They are not always lying, but sometimes they prefer to hide information that's bad for them (which is not lying by definition). (e.g. You'll never hear on the Western media that people killed in airstrikes are civilians 90% of the time)

Russians aren't just omitting information, they wage an active misinformation war. They famously keep lying out of their ass regarding the MH17 shootdown, going as far as fabricating evidence and refusing any kind of neutral investigation. Western media are biased and one needs to check other sources to get the whole truth, but Russian media have to be always treated as pro-Kremlin propaganda - if they're not, they get shut down for being traitors funded by foreign agents.

Also a resounding L O L to more of firefish's relativizing vague posting. I've never seen so much running in circles of your own definitions.

If that is vague to you then i wonder how you would ever be able to follow political debates. Im begining to enjoy your posts. L O L. ;-)

Now it is coming out that many photos used by the french media as pictures of the "terrorists" were stolen from random arabs social media.

But, no, the west has no reason to be dishonest. Despite how routine of an occurance stuff like this is.

Hundreds murdered by france as a result of tge media and its lying, and for sure there will not even be so much as an "oops, my bad" from france or the media.

Mechazawa said:

Now it is coming out that many photos used by the french media as pictures of the "terrorists" were stolen from random arabs social media.

But, no, the west has no reason to be dishonest. Despite how routine of an occurance stuff like this is.

Hundreds murdered by france as a result of tge media and its lying, and for sure there will not even be so much as an "oops, my bad" from france or the media.

Take heart Mechazawa, Even western news sources are starting to weigh the implications of France failing to activate article V of the NATO treaty. Fractures are just appearing in the foundations of Ashton Carter's "international order" to barrow his phrase. It saddens me to think how many innocent lives have been lost, but we're finally glimpsing light at the end of this tunnel. We can only hope that the recent hints dropped about WMDs are just that, hints.

Mechazawa said:

Hundreds murdered by france as a result of tge media and its lying, and for sure there will not even be so much as an "oops, my bad" from france or the media.

Are we in full false flag mode? Please tell me we're in full false flag mode. The flag was waving even though there is no wind in Paris, the shrapnel trajectories suggest a third bomber and bullets don't melt metal concerts. I'm not saying it was jewish illuminatis, but it was jewish illuminatis.

Mechazawa said:

the west has no reason to be dishonest. Despite how routine of an occurance stuff like this is.

Jesus Christ dude, just suck "the east"'s collective penis already! Throw out all your inferior westernised belongings, including your computer!

Mechazawa said:

Now it is coming out that many photos used by the french media as pictures of the "terrorists" were stolen from random arabs social media.

But, no, the west has no reason to be dishonest. Despite how routine of an occurance stuff like this is.

Hundreds murdered by france as a result of tge media and its lying, and for sure there will not even be so much as an "oops, my bad" from france or the media.

Please go join Daesh immediately, so that you can receive a HAMMER on the head and stop posting this incoherent nonsense.

no Turkey NO


(wow this thread really turned south for the winter didn't it)

HavoX said:

no Turkey NO

I can't watch the video of course, but it isn't that important in the larger scheme of things. What Obama/Hollande say or fail to say at the WhiteHouse meeting will be more telling.

"Stab in the back," is the term Putin went with? Hmmmmm, interesting considering the historic connotations.

*Waves fist at sky, curses metered bandwidth for the 1000th time.*

zZaRDoZz said:

Take heart Mechazawa, Even western news sources are starting to weigh the implications of France failing to activate article V of the NATO treaty. Fractures are just appearing in the foundations of Ashton Carter's "international order" to barrow his phrase. It saddens me to think how many innocent lives have been lost, but we're finally glimpsing light at the end of this tunnel. We can only hope that the recent hints dropped about WMDs are just that, hints.

Given that the whole paris thing was so openly lied about and used as justification to murder people, we should probably expect more of the usual. People were outraged at the accusation that brown people harmed them, but when it turned out their own news media lied explicitly about it to invoke a violent response (and the french government willingly obliging) there was not a peep to be had. The collective indifference of people in the west is what will allow western governments to continue fucking everyone else over.

The whole WMD thing is scary, America used that flimsy excuse to start a war that lasted 10 years. One which the US lost, mostly Iraqi and Afghani civilians died, and provided the arena for what is going on today in Iraq and Syria to form.

What's really scary is that there are plenty of people who live in some parallel fantasy world, where they constantly parrot the bullshit they read on infowars and globalresearch.

At this point it's certainly fair to say that all parties are in full information war mode and there's little that can be trusted as far as video or single framed pictures are concerned. I admit to falling hook-line-and-sinker for that 'apache escorts daesh convoy' video last week. Treading carefully along the lines of our own confirmation bias is critical.

Some of us remember the 'Kuwaiti babies thrown from incubators by Iraqis' routine.
A little over sensitivity is probably justified if you're aquainted to a people who've lost nearly a million to someone else's greed.

It boils down to this; morons willing to outright lie or willing to repeat lies to blame the USA for stuff.

Mechazawa said:

The only two nations that can defend themselves against America's (and by association, the EU) policies and attacks are Russia and China. If America or the EU are in conflict as a whole with any other nation then they are by default the aggressors. It doesn't matter what the governments or media says. Really, it doesn't.

Why not? Both Russia and China have been as territoriality aggressive as the US or EU have since the turn of the century.

HavoX said:

no Turkey NO

Fuck NATO. Russia is helping fight ISIS and they shot their jets? Maybe they are angry at Russia because they have destroyed the trucks that ISIS was using to transport oil from/to Turkey. This sucks really, I was disappointed of the news this morning. This is stupid. Even worse, one of the Russian pilots that ejected himself from the jet got killed by Syrian rebels.

Wow: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/turkey-greece-cyprus-aegean-air-space-nato.html#
"In just the first month of 2014 Turkish jets are claimed to have violated Greek airspace 1,017 times"

axdoom1 said:

Fuck NATO. Russia is helping fight ISIS and they shot their jets?

The Russians are not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. The Russians want a stronger foothold in the Middle East. Yes, they will destroy IS and christ knows what else, but then they will fucking park their suitcases and move in.

NATO have only *just* got West Germany back from the Russians after the last time. Turkey have been pissing the Russians off for decades by building stronger ties with the west. I'd be shitting bricks if I were them, because it turns out that the only thing worse than having ISIS on your doorstep is having a bunch of pissed off Russians fucking their way through the catflap. (see; Georgia for details).

So, what to do? France can't shoot down a Russian plane that is flagrantly giving the finger to Nato, because that would be war and political suicide. Ditto Britain and Germany, and no fucking way America would even dare. So that leaves the scrappy little shithole countries to do it for us, because when shithole countries in the middle east blow a plane out of the sky, no one important enough can really be held accountable for it. Thus, WW3 is averted and Russia gets to know EXACTLY where the line in the sand is drawn.

The bulk of Russia's attacks have been against anti-Assad rebels other than Daesh, just like the bulk of the Syrian Arab Army's attacks have been against rebels other than Daesh. Russia also doesn't care at all about collateral damage, they drop unguided bombs from these planes.

On the other hand, Turkey's interests in the fight is to kill Kurds and, if needed, to protect Syrian Turkmens. Since the Turkmens are rebellious against Assad, Russia bombs them, and Turkey was looking for ways to make them stop.

The takeaway from all this is that neither Turkey nor Russia are reliable allies if you want to destroy Daesh.

The plane entered Turkish airspace for like 20 seconds and even though it's a shocking, disgusting excuse, it's probably technically going to stand. Russia will have (to have) their revenge where it's going to hurt the West more than trading slaps with Turkey. If I was living in Mariupol, I'd have my shit ready in a suitcase. Who knows what anti-terrorism campaign might crop up now that Ukrainian "nationalists" blew up the power lines to Crimea. Which is, you know, recognized as terrorism everywhere in the world.

The incident nicely underscored that there really are no good guys in the entire conflict - definitely not the goddamn Turkey.

Keep in mind that Putin wanted some sort of conflict at the border since day one. Russia has already promised to send aircraft back with fighter escorts, so in the near future we can look forward to a downed aircraft of some sort, it doesn't matter whose, as long as it crashes well within Syrian territory. Putin will have a mad dog off the NATO chain that he can point to. There's only one way to deal with a mad dog of course, so s-10 missiles get stationed all along the border, complete with shoot to kill orders. The US won't have it, resulting in an infux of NATO aircraft. Russia will want to talk at that point, and the solution will be non-Turkish Nato planes guarding one side and Russians on the other. It will be the first no fly zone in Syria, with only the Turks being left out. Putin will have what he wanted, and the Turks handed it to him.

My god, you are a fool who thinks he (or she) knows everything about world politics.

Who would have thought , 11 Pages , you went too far and off-topic .

DMGUYDZ64 said:

Who would have thought , 11 Pages , you went too far and off-topic .

Given the recent policy changes here, we should be glad the admins. allowed this thread to exist. A lot of innocent people were hurt and the mods tolerated this topic so people at doomworld could work out their fears and anger amidst friends and co-gamers.

Respect to all those who participated, no matter what side you found yourselves on.

Gez said:

On the other hand, Turkey's interests in the fight is to kill Kurds and, if needed, to protect Syrian Turkmens. Since the Turkmens are rebellious against Assad, Russia bombs them, and Turkey was looking for ways to make them stop.

All these Turkmens are gonna die, downing a Russian jet was a very, very bad move. Putin decided to get his revenge.

"By Wednesday morning, Russia had begun bombarding rebels — including Turkmen insurgents, who have ethnic ties to Turkey — in Syria’s Latakia province, ignoring demands made by Turkey over the past week to end its military operations close to the Turkish border."

"Russia also announced Wednesday that it would deploy state-of-the-art S-400 missile systems to the Russian Hemeimeem air base near Latakia, Syria — 30 miles south of the Turkish border, the AP reported. The missiles, which are able to hit a plane with extreme accuracy, are evidently meant to deter Turkish jets from shooting down Russian planes in the future."

"And in a largely symbolic gesture on Wednesday, the Russian parliament proposed a five-year jail term for anyone who denies that the mass killings of Armenians that began under Ottoman rule in 1915 constituted a “genocide,” according to an article translated by Foreign Policy columnist and Russia commentator Julia Ioffe."

"And there is one other way that Russia could retaliate against Turkey more directly: Namely, by drawing attention to the NATO ally’s suspected ties to the Islamic State in Syria."

Turkey likes to kill journalists who expose their ties to ISIS to shut them up. I'm talking about Serena Shim.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2799924/mystery-american-journalist-killed-car-crash-turkey-just-days-claimed-intelligence-services-threatened-coverage-siege-kobane.html
http://www.thedailysheeple.com/us-government-still-silent-on-american-journalist-murdered-for-exposing-turkeys-isis-ties_112015
http://www.wnd.com/2014/10/suspicion-hangs-over-death-of-u-s-journalist-in-turkey/