Memento Mori 3, question about E2M7

kmxexii said:

1) i would do what requiem did, and call it another vague gloomy title like epitaph

"Tempus Fugit" is the other Latin phrase that typically goes with "Memento Mori". I'm actually kinda surprised the name hasn't been taken already.

Sometimes there's the third phrase "Carpe Diem", to complete the message: "life is short, enjoy it while you can".

caution: awful opinion alert

I'm trying to care about Doom 4, really, because there do seem to be some decent mindsets behind the helm - but I just can't find it in me to give a shart.

I just can't be appealed by it. It looks nowhere near where I wish it was.

Same with Doom 3. Both Doom sequels in name only.

It doesn't help that I'd have to upgrade my graphics card first in order to play it. And that's simply too much money for a game I may not even care about. The memories of Doom3 still linger.

^Yeah, that's what I meant about the console vs. PC thing. Though of course, there is an argument some are given to that the mere fact console is an option at all is part of the fundamental problem, I suppose....

goddamnit ling. i thought that someone had actually surprise released memento mori 3.

basically, im in the my comp is old and i cant afford to do anything about it right now camp. so im going to miss playing on launch day, although i am going to get the collectors edition @ launch.

at some point i will have the money for a new machine, find a copy with no steam attached and play it for the rest of forever.

Woah, Ling goes with the classicist bait to get things rolling and Doomworld swallows it hook, line and sinker! We might need another pink fish revival to commemorate this sucker haul. A couple of fishies in this thread are giving him more than he bargained for!

Doom 4 looks like it'll be a cool game with strength of character and, importantly, not in two minds about what it wants to be or how it wants to play. It might be built around a misconception of what Doom's strengths are beyond base appeal but as die hard fans who have carved out more definition to the depth of its playing experience over the last 20 years than the developers themselves, we'd do well to realise these niche understandings for what they are and recognise the game for what it's trying to be. Doom and Doom "2016" are separate beasts entirely; there needn't be an identity crisis. Franchises have departed from the spirit of their foundations for poorer reasons than this.

I'll probably grab a copy when I get a new rig.

I have a bunch of thoughts about the new Doom.

First of all I'm probably not going to buy it straight away, because 1) I don't think I have a machine that can play it, and 2) I'm just not that excited about it. I'll probably buy it in a year or so once that changes and the price drops. I'm far more excited about Blackroom than the new Doom.

The new Doom game wholeheartedly embraces an aesthetic that just doesn't really appeal to me. Lots of people have this memory of the original Doom that just doesn't fit with my own memories. The way they seem to remember it goes like this: Doom was this hyper-masculine gore game full of over-the-top violence, where you tear demons to shreds with your chainsaw, splattering blood everywhere while a pumping heavy metal soundtrack plays.

Brutal Doom is the obvious distilled version of this aesthetic, where the entire game is reworked to behave like this. It seems like the new Doom embraces it too, and I really have to give id/Bethesda some credit for looking to a fan-made mod like Brutal Doom for inspiration and giving people what it seems they want. If that's how people remember Doom then it seems like the new Doom is a spiritual successor that pays homage to that legacy.

Here's the problem for me though: that's just not how I remember Doom.

Was there gore? Sure, but I never felt like it was the central focus of the game. There's the chainsaw of course, but it always felt like a gimmick they stuck in the game for fun rather than a serious weapon that was actually useful to play the game. And once you get past E1M1, most of the music is actually more slow, spooky and atmospheric than fast-paced high-adrenaline stuff.

Rather I liked Doom for its fun gameplay and interesting level design. Finding the path through those levels and discovering all the secrets is like a puzzle to be solved. Like when you see a soul sphere sitting somewhere seemingly accessible, and that sense of satisfaction when you finally discover the secret path by which you can get there. That was far more satisfying than tearing up an imp with a chainsaw. The monsters to me are like obstacles to be overcome, sometimes through firepower and sometimes through tactical use of the surroundings, rather than the centrepieces of a visceral gorefest, to be torn to shreds with as much blood as possible.

Maybe it's just because the graphics were much more primitive. The monsters were cartoony enough that it certainly never felt like I was looking at any kind of real "gore". It's just not something that sticks in my memory when I think about the game.

To be clear, I'm not saying I'm squeamish or I somehow don't want to play the new Doom because I can't stand the sight of blood. It's just that that kind of gameplay doesn't really do anything for me. My reaction is kind of "well, great, there will be plenty of people who enjoy that, I guess". The seemingly-central part of the game isn't what I remember and love about Doom. So it's hard for me to get excited about it.

Meanwhile the marketing for the new Doom is also offputting. It's clear there's a specific demographic they're targeting, I really don't feel "part of" that demographic and it ends up just deeply alienating. I'm not in my 20s any more, I don't play a lot of FPSes apart from Doom, etc. I know that marketing is a crappy reason not to like a game, but really it's just helped to drive home the overall feeling of "this is not for you" that I get.

While I really wasn't impressed with the multiplayer aspect that I saw, the singleplayer did look kinda fun. As long as I remind myself that this is a new game and not the doom we grew up with, I can enjoy it.

Tbh I didn't care so much about Doom 4, I won't buy it (if I ever will) before the price lowers and until I get a new pc, though that won't happen anytime soon. Nonethless I followed a bit the stuff they showed before the release, and the more I watched of it and the more I became uninterested about the game. That multiplayer didn't seem really good imo. The singleplayer was better but still it wasn't convincing to me. Even though I agree with Alfonzo that it should be treated as a different thing from Doom I feel that I won't be really satisfied with this game.

Played a couple of hours of it so far.

It's quite arena orientated, and the player movement doesn't feel quite fast enough, but perhaps there are movement upgrades further on. The weapons are satisfying to use, and the enemy count feels high enough to make it feel more like Doom than Doom3 did.

It's pretty fun so far.

Yeah, what fraggle said sums it up for me too.

I am more interested in this game than Doom 3, that whole dark-survival-horror style turned me off completely. With Doom 4, I think the visuals look great, but all the gory close-up killing stuff is not what I want to engage in (I found some parts of the trailers hard to watch actually).

andrewj said:

... but all the gory close-up killing stuff is not what I want to engage in (I found some parts of the trailers hard to watch actually).

Agreed, the face splitting and punching to a gory paste is really overboard, I mean, it doesn't even seem like it would be that fun running from monster to monster performing these "death combos" on them.

I'll probably play it on the 'Bone', so my question is this; are any other members playing it on console that can comment on how it plays compared to the PC version?

I tried watching some Doom 4 gameplay videos, but I couldn't get far because I just felt sorry for the monsters. They are moving like some helpless drunkards, just barely shooting back at the player, and the way they suffer and die in horribly bloody ways... I really really don't understand the modern gaming aesthetic.

That's the thing with the classic games, they might have generated some controversy 20 years ago, but actually they are very cartoonish, colorful and almost happy. The monsters are badass (everyone respects cyberdemons and arch-viles) but at the same time they are sympathetic, they are almost like your friends that you come to see again and again. Like everyone finds cacodemons very cute, and you could argue that arachnotrons and demons look kinda like pets as well. You just feel good around them. And the ways they die are cool and satisfying, and they don't make you feel like a cold-blooded killer that tortures thousands of demons without dropping a sweat.

So basically I pretty much agree with fraggle I think. For me Doom has nothing to do with brutalness, gore, grim environments or whatever. It's more like a wonderful adventure, sometimes colorful, other times mysterious or spooky, but never really dark.

kuchitsu said:

I tried watching some Doom 4 gameplay videos, but I couldn't get far because I just felt sorry for the monsters. They are moving like some helpless drunkards, just barely shooting back at the player, and the way they suffer and die in horribly bloody ways... I really really don't understand the modern gaming aesthetic.

That's the thing with the classic games, they might have generated some controversy 20 years ago, but actually they are very cartoonish, colorful and almost happy. The monsters are badass (everyone respects cyberdemons and arch-viles) but at the same time they are sympathetic, they are almost like your friends that you come to see again and again. Like everyone finds cacodemons very cute, and you could argue that arachnotrons and demons look kinda like pets as well. You just feel good around them. And the ways they die are cool and satisfying, and they don't make you feel like a cold-blooded killer that tortures thousands of demons without dropping a sweat.

So basically I pretty much agree with fraggle I think. For me Doom has nothing to do with brutalness, gore, grim environments or whatever. It's more like a wonderful adventure, sometimes colorful, other times mysterious or spooky, but never really dark.

I agree with this too. Though there are definitely some more grim aspects of the game, a lot of Doom feels pretty silly and cartoony. Cacos are a great example of that, and if I remember right, Romero said once that he wanted revenants to make him laugh while they were killing him, hence the comedic SKEPCH punching sound.

But the game still has the capacity to be creepy when it tries to be, too. I'm not really sure how best you'd achieve that same balance in a more detailed-looking modern game, but all the 'brutal' stuff just feels more gross than empowering or whatever.

From footage I've seen, it looks way more fun than Doom 3. Sure, it's not classic Doom but I was never under any illusions that it would be. Can't really agree on it being too much gore or not cartoony enough, though the rip-and-tear sequences do seem like an annoying interruption to the gameplay, but, from what I can gather, you choose to do or not do those as you like.

That said, I won't be picking it up any time soon, for a few reasons; I'm generally not convinced of any new game being worth the full release price, I want to see what people will be saying about the level design and how good (or not good) snapmap is, and my stalwart 8-year old computer, even with the graphics card upgrade I put in it, really isn't cut out for recent games outside of less-demanding indie stuff. Still waiting for something to really convince me to upgrade and I don't think Doom '16 is it.

andrewj said:

With Doom 4, I think the visuals look great, but all the gory close-up killing stuff is not what I want to engage in (I found some parts of the trailers hard to watch actually).

Same here :( Quite agree with kuchitsu too. I actually did stop watching the trailers/gameplay videos altogether, and whatever one I did try to watch last, I stopped halfway through because the brutality grossed me out.

Finished the second level on Ultra-Violence. Playing on PC. I'll write my thoughts out down below.

Doom 2016 knows what made classic Doom fun.

This is probably the highest praise I can heap upon the game. Like everyone else, I was extremely skeptical of the game since the reveal trailer, mainly because old franchises have immense difficulty jumping generational gaps. I enjoyed Doom 3 for what it was, but it tackled the Doom formula from the horror perspective, slowing gameplay down and drastically reducing monster quantity. Since the start of the new Doom's unveiling, it felt like id looked at brutal Doom and concluded "so this is what people want!" While it's true to an extent (namely in the finishers), the new Doom captures and emphasizes something that Brutal Doom (IMO) forgot about :

Speed.

The opening cutscene lasts for like 20 seconds, and then you're onto shooting guys. Twenty seconds! That's an insanely brief time for modern shooters nowadays, especially considering that the opening logo parade goes on for about as long (or longer). A few minutes later you're thrust into an arena, circle strafing imps that are clambering up walls and whipping fireballs a hair's breadth from your face. Both the pace of the game and the combat itself is astoundingly fast for a modern shooter, which is a phenomenal blessing since it keeps the new Doom from feeling like other FPSs and more like... regular ol' Doom.

Or maybe Valiant would be a more apt comparison. While you'll routinely engage enemies in hallways and small rooms, most of the big battles take place in spacious arenas that emphasize player mobility. Thus far the game hasn't asked me to apply any tactical prowess (your best option is always "shoot demons 'til they're dead"), but it demands a speedy reflex and a retention of enemy type and number. I cannot describe how satisfying the combat is, as its frenetic pace means you have little time to appreciate impromptu genius (like shooting an explosive barrel to decimate a nearby imp) before more enemies are breathing down your neck. The alternate fire modules to each weapon also seem promising, as they change how you approach groups of enemies (though I will never stop enjoying blowing myself up with the shotgun alt fire). There's no cover camping or relaxing encounters present thus far; you move or you die.

Speaking of dying, a good way not to die is to use the melee finisher, which is a mechanic I've been learning to appreciate. On the surface it seems like a pointless and tawdry appeal to an adolescent's macabre fantasies, and while I certainly can't defend against that accusation, it works well as a gameplay mechanic, always keeping you on the offensive. Like in old Doom you can scrounge around an unexplored area for stray health packs, or you can hop right along to the next encounter if you so wish, keeping the flow of combat at a brisk pace. The melee mechanic allows enemies to do high damage to the player since there's always a constant chance to replenish, and most of the animations last like, what, 0.5 seconds? At worst it disorients you for a bit, but it usually grants you a brief reprieve so you can think about changing weapons or lobbing a grenade as soon as you're back in control. Honestly the only time they feel unnecessary is during the Berserk power-up, since it stops me from ripping & tearing as much as I'd like to.

Levels have been good so far too. There's no escaping the "sameyness" that plagued Doom 3 unfortunately, as most of the interiors look like generic interiors, and the dusty surface of Mars looks exactly like you'd imagine, but at least everything looks sharp. There's a lot of verticality in each area with plenty of goodies scattered about. No significantly robust branching paths or anything, but man did this game make sure to throw in plenty of secret areas. For reference, here is the map to level 2.

I never reached the area at the very bottom, nor the top layer of the top section (you can see the map has 8 secret areas, denoted by the question marks). Also, I actually found a hidden weapon in one of the secrets, which was a pleasant surprise. Of course secret hunting is vastly different in 3D than it is in 2D (it's mostly about spotting a vent or cranny rather than any kind of puzzle), but it's nevertheless an appreciated addition to the game.

Last thing I'll mention is that I suppose the aesthetic will be a mixed bag for some people. The original Doom is a cartoony and wild place compared to this one, but it's not like this game is trying its damnedest to be "cool" or "edgy" either. At one point someone says to you "we exploited Hell's resources because it was in our best interest to do so." That is a dumb, dumb line, and the developers had to have know this. The gore doesn't come across as torture porn but rather something profusely silly—like cutting men in half and stealing their spines in Metal Gear Rising—and the frequent use of bright greens and reds at least keeps the game from getting as dark and dismal as Doom 3 became. Doom 2016 is kinda like the wet dream of what a 13 year old imagined Doom would become in 20 years, stupidity and all.

From what I've played, this is honestly the best case scenario for a modern Doom. Rather than try and cobble together different aspects from different FPSs in a hamfisted way (*coughDukeNukemForevercough*), Doom 2016 seems to buck the trend by getting rid of reloading, sprinting, regenerating shields, aim down sights, and cover-based gameplay—all it wants is the player to be agile and quick on the draw. It won't appeal to everyone, but I'm certainly looking forward to playing more.

If you guys got any questions, feel free to ask 'em.

That sounds exactly like what I was hoping the game would be. Definitely time to go to Fry's or Best Buy and go PC shopping this weekend.

dobu gabu maru said:

If you guys got any questions, feel free to ask 'em.

Does it work with Brutal Doom?

Note that part of my enthusiasm is because I went into it with little to no expectations, so part of my fervor is probably from me being pleasantly surprised.

Linguica said:

Does it work with Brutal Doom?

I'm sure if you look at the code, Brutal Doom is in there by default, so no need to add it.

I kind of disagree with the assertion that Doom 4 isn't really cartoony, anyway. I mean, the humans do look fairly realistic, but the Imps and Cacodemons look like they popped out of a comic book (and I mean that as a compliment). Plus, the way the Doom Guy is eviscerating things left and right is pretty cartoony in its own right.

I mean, okay, so the Imps and Possessed Humans don't still sound like camels, but the gore has that slight comedic bent to it that Romero said was really important to have in your ultra-violent games, which I think is partly why I'm taking to this game.

Also, the shotgun could use a bit more punch to its firing sound effect, but taking out an Imp's head in one shot is still really satisfying.

dobu gabu maru said:

If you guys got any questions, feel free to ask 'em.

What's the Snapmap/editing like, if you've messed with that yet?

Also, I'm surprised and pleased to see that it has a map screen.

So far? Kinda clunky, IMO. The most-used hotkeys kinda feel like they're all over the place, like G, X and Spacebar, and the early tutorials I've done don't really mention the ability to use the mouse to place objects down instead of pressing Space, or the ability to right-click on things for a giant wheel of actions (though it seems to be deliberately limited in the tutorial).

FWIW, I kinda find the Build Editor clunky to use, while I imagine people who've used it for years find it second nature (much as I find GZDB straightforward to use after years of Doom Builder use). Probably just growing pains.

Also noticed in the tutorial level for the AI-populated items and monsters that you can only carry two guns at a time, contrary to the main game. (I have a heavy machine gun and a combat shotgun, but I can't carry the plasma rifle too?)

I just wish the retail release came on more than one DVD so I would need to spend less time downloading it off the Steam server.

kuchitsu said:

I tried watching some Doom 4 gameplay videos, but I couldn't get far because I just felt sorry for the monsters. They are moving like some helpless drunkards, just barely shooting back at the player, and the way they suffer and die in horribly bloody ways...

I personally never really saw the demons as suffering when killed like that; I've always thought of demons as horrific monsters that don't know pain (or rather, they never suffer), or basically anything that isn't hate. I'm probably not going to use the glory kill stuff that much when I finally do play (seems more fun to just keep shooting), but they aren't a problem for me personally, but...

The one exception for me is one of the Mancubus executions, where the player rips out some power core/heart thing inside it and shoves it down its throat. The way it reacts to that really does look like it's suffering, and yeah, I kinda feel bad for it. So I guess if that extends to the rest of the executions and even the "normal" gameplay, then yeah, I can totally understand where people are coming from with this.

What if they enjoy pain? Demons aren't necessarily working on the same logic as us. I mean, after all, there are monkeys who smile when they are pissed off.

I'm 6 hours into the Campaign and it's pretty good so far except for a few weird decisions here and there. What's with the armour system? Instead of working the way it does in most games that have it (the original Doom itself, Far Cry 1, Fear) it's a secondary health bar that absorbs all damage.

I was never too interested in any Doom's multiplayer. From what I played of the beta it's an all right mutation of Halo's. I can see myself playing it for a few hours, but it's nothing I'll come back to.

If I had to complain about something it'd be Snapmap. It was obviously made with multiplayer/co-op in mind and you're out of luck if you want to focus on Singleplayer. Sure, you can add only one player spawn point, but you still can't disable the two weapon limit or pause the game.

Thank you dobu for your detailed review thus far; it makes me want to get that graphics card upgrade, heh.

Quick question: would you mind if I use that as a quote in this week's TWID article?

^ Yeah sure, go ahead.

Haven't done any SnapMap stuff, but I'm midway through level 4. Just wanted to add that the maps open up a bit more and have a "do these 4 things in any order to exit the level" spiel, further cementing my Valiant comparison. Also Hell Knights are some real mean bastards—it's basically Game Over if you let one get up in your grill. Sometimes the combat can feel too punishing since enemies all move as fast as the player, but I suppose this is what I get for playing on UV :P