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degree23
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Posts: 276
Registered: 07-13



scifista42 said:
1. Let all maps be playtested by at least several people who will identify and report their qualitative flaws, that means not just bugs and errors, but subjectively perceived flaws in the map's design and gameplay as well.

There already was fair amount of feedback given before the second alpha of this, much of which was simply ignored. I played the whole thing and Tactical Stiffy fed back on 2/3 of the maps. It would have been helpful for that to have been relayed to the authors at the time, to either change their maps or just acknowledge the feedback even if they weren't going to change anything.

Old Post Nov 5 2016 15:08 #
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Jaws In Space
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Posts: 1038
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scifista42 said:
Worse than rude - an actual betray.

Oh please, you accuse me of betrayal, when for the past year you have just let this project languish in development hell because you won't let anyone else take over. You've wasted the time of your mappers & you've wasted the time of your testers. Since you outright stated that you detest the project & don't want to work on it anymore I say let Joe-Ilya take over, at least he has a plan to get this project released, unlike you.

Old Post Nov 5 2016 15:23 #
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scifista42
Why don't I have a custom title by now!?


Posts: 12631
Registered: 05-12



joe-ilya said:
It's not that bad if you have good intentions.

I'm convinced that it actually is that bad.

degree23 said:
There already was fair amount of feedback given before the second alpha of this, much of which was simply ignored. I played the whole thing and Tactical Stiffy fed back on 2/3 of the maps.

I'm grateful that you did. It was always on the plan to eventually take your and all other feedbacks together for collective evaluation after the playtesting phase will be complete. The problem was that I've never considered the playtesting phase complete. I was going to call it complete after playtesting the maps myself, but that was around the time when not only mine but everyone's interest in the project was already low, and so I screwed that up and did nothing. But once it finally happens, your already given feedback won't be ignored.

degree23 said:
It would have been helpful for that to have been relayed to the authors at the time, to either change their maps or just acknowledge the feedback even if they weren't going to change anything.

Fair point. Again, my failure due to little interest already at that time.

Jaws In Space said:
you accuse me of betrayal,

No. I only accuse you of creating a situation that turned out to be unpleasant to some people, thus setting a precedent that I've been explicitly trying to avoid in this project since the beginning, and if I failed that, that would be a betray. What you did was just... Something I thought was not right.

Jaws In Space said:
Since you outright stated that you detest the project & don't want to work on it anymore

I was careful not to use the word "anymore" as I was afraid of this very kind of reply. I am willing to continue working on the project. See below.

Jaws In Space said:
I say let Joe-Ilya take over, at least he has a plan to get this project released, unlike you.

1. No.
2. His plan is wrong.
3. I do have a plan, I even described it point-by-point in a list. And I intend to realize the plan, too. Just need 1) help and 2) motivation.

One thing I can try for now, something that came to my mind only today, is to write down given feedbacks for each map into a single text file, sorted by the map being addressed, and post that text file. It might give a more focused view about the state of the maps and what's needed to do. Maybe that'd be a good first step of setting things into motion again.

Old Post Nov 5 2016 16:25 #
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scifista42
Why don't I have a custom title by now!?


Posts: 12631
Registered: 05-12


I went through the thread (from newer to older posts) and made a rough compilation of relevant map-related feedback given during years 2015-16, sorted primarily by maps, secondarily by date (descendingly). Some of it might be made obsolete by updated versions of the maps released later.

Next thing to do: Try to transform this compilation into a "todo" list as degree23 suggested here in a post that I've missed back then.
Spoiler:
MAP01 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
This map has a great start and pays homage to Entryway with the 2 zombiemen with their backs facing you to start the map. I liked it, I appreciate it having a rocket launcher to shoot in the brain to open the exit door. This map is really short only having 3 rooms really. The only complaint I have is the obsessive use of Imps in cages on the walls. The first time I played this map I literally used my last bullet to kill the last imp in a cage. Ammo is tight if you don't use the chainsaw.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
It could use 4 more Shells, as to UV-Max probably requires pistol shooting a few of the caged Imps, but otherwise it seemed good. The RL and layout makes it pretty obvious you should shoot into the IoS area.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
The lifts should be shorter since the buttons to activate them are repeating up the wall and the long lifts are too lengthy anyways. The map also needs a bit more shells and the IOS has wierd triggering, you have to shoot barrels instead of just a button or something that requires one shot of a pistol, the switch should be visible if that's what you'll do.



MAP02 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Another fun as hell map better than the first. I actually loathe Industrial Zone, It's probably my least favorite map in doom 2. It surprisingly works as a tech base map. The secrets are not to difficult to find however, I don't understand how the secret wall in the red door room was open already when I went in there. (this is my third time playing this map) I agree on the yellow key bar thing, they should stay up and I moderately agree on the mid tier enemies here. It does sort of feel out of place on a second map but I don't know I would probably just keep them.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
It's the fact you can see the RL earlier in the map with no immediate way to get it, which usually means it's going to be a secret.

scifista42
Jul 27 2015
IMO, the current MAP02 could easily become a later map, due to its size and complexity, and also usage of a few mid-tier monster types.

Magnusblitz
Jul 27 2015
Never thought a pair of revenants would be so controversial, heh. In any event, I'm not really concerned with "oh but its only the second map," despite vanilla compatibility and obvious IWAD basis its not a DTWID-style mapset; I don't feel the need to stick with the "standard" ramp-up. This doesn't mean I'm totally going to go off the rails, either, it's still part of a whole mapset that many will play continuously. But the revenants provide the sharp surprise spike I wanted at the end of the map that another monster type wouldn't do (and without being ridiculous like a cyberdemon or something).
Truth be told the backpack was supposed to be the secret and the RL was put up there as an afterthought; not sure which players find to be more 'important'. If not getting the secret found message made you realized you missed the backpack maybe it's good to keep it that way? I could relocate the backpack, I suppose, to be more in the middle of the obvious path.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
I agree with the sentiments that the Revenants at the end feel out of place. This map introduces Cacodemons, Hell Knights and Revenants and it's only the second map. I'd be inclined to move the HK near the exit area to the exit in place of the Revenants. Either way I do feel the Revenants need to disappear from the map. The yellow bars should probably also stay open once you've opened them as I don't think they serve much of a purpose having to be reopened. You're not ambushed or anything in that area so there's no reason to be closed in. I found it weird that it was the Backpack that triggered the secret on the way to the RL. I actually didn't see it there at all until I realised I hadn't had the secret found message. I would make sector 86 the secret.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
The imps in the 32x32 cages that you have to open each , it should be made where opening just one cage opens them all, make it a switch or a trap.
The yellow bars should be openable once without locking, it gets old when you have to open both of them each time you pass, make them open both at once when you open just one.
There are two green armors in the level, one of the should be replaced with a group of armor bonuses.
The revenants at the exit should be replaced with something earlier as it's MAP02 after all, they could be demons or spectres or something else.
Tutti-fruity all over these stairs: (img)

cannonball
Mar 4 2015
I thought the second half of this map was fantastic actually, the first half being all indoors I was a little less enthused by, btw was sector 406 intended to be inescapable?. I feel that maybe a few windows could be added to a couple of the rooms in the first section to make it feel more connected together but otherwise a fine effort I think.

tourniquet
Mar 4 2015
Tbh i think it's flawless, scaling down everything worked well nonetheless the original layout is absolutely recognizable.
Also lot's of neat details like the Blood/Nukage pipes or those machines/crushers, good job



MAP03 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
I don't know if I really like the name. I think this map is the most challenging yet despite not using any mid tier or higher enemies.The map played out pretty crazily in some of the early rooms. A lot of chaingunner closets in this map. The final room is pretty tough (maybe even harder than the original level). There isn't much more to say this map is pretty perfect.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
The section at the yellow key feels very difficult for only the third map. The section with the blue and red keys doesn't look... quite right. The height variations of the various pillars just don't really seem to work together for some reason, though maybe it's just me. I think it was the fact most of them are rectangular and 2 different heights just looks a little weird in the context. I don't know if I would change much of it though because I'm sure many others like it. One thing I would change, however, is that sector 107 should really rise to the height of sector 100. It's no problem to make the step across, but it didn't feel right.
-
The ammo balance for Map 3 is quite tricky I think. There are quite a few Rockets on that map due to the enemy count, but if you have the SSG then you don't really need it.



MAP04 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Favorite map of the first 6. The Catacombs layout really fits this style map pretty damn well. I like the dark colors and use of lighting here. It's also pretty challenging. This map doesn't use any mid tier enemies either. Even though this map pays homage to the focus with the style going on and one of the secrets. I feel this one could be swapped with MAP02 and it would fit the mid tier enemy progression better. I like this map no complaints at all.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
I meant more that the exit should be more obvious, rather than opening up the entrance.

Magnusblitz
Jul 27 2015
This is intended... the second one is supposed to sort of catch the player off guard if they don't notice him. If others think it feels weird or ineffective though I'll change it.
Now that I think about it is a little weird, I suppose I just wanted a quicker way for the player to get out. Doesn't seem gamebreaking though... I'll take more thoughts on it.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
The Chaingunners in sector 143 don't wake up when you fire after hitting the switch to open it. (Only 1 of them saw me, so I killed him, but the other didn't wake) The escape from the secret at sector 214 wasn't immediately obvious to me; I ran back to the way I came in only to find I couldn't escape that way.
-
At the end of Map 4 I currently have 25 ammo for the RL, which is quite a lot to be carrying at this early point in the WAD. Depending what the rest of the maps in this first section are like, it may be worth moving it a few maps later.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
(img)



MAP05 ===========================================================================
============================================

walter confalonieri
Mar 5 2016
http://www.mediafire.com/download/d99w6mt3d3l6cdb/map19-as-05.wad
fixed version of my map, the music is still the old one...

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Oh boy another of my least favorites from Doom 2. This is better than the Citadel but it was still annoying to navigate. I still hate that room with the teleports in it. That's not the map makers fault though so I can't complain. I can complain about the hell knight that starts in front of you though. I just don't feel that it is necessary. I also don't like the use of flesh in the room with all the imps on ledges. I would change that because it doesn't fit the tech base theme. Other than that it's fun.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
You're quite a long way into the map before you find any meaningful armour. The second half of the music is good, but the first half doesn't really seem to fit the map. I didn't get the PG until the end, which means I'm now going into the next map with 160 Cells. Given you have a SSG and a RL on this map, maybe the ammo could be halved. There aren't any large battles where firing over 100 PG shots is required.

joe-ilya
Jul 27 2015
The MIDI is a lullaby, which doesn't fit.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
Non-threatning pinkies: (img)



MAP06 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
God I hate the Living End too *Flame Shield* I just don't like the style of the map in Doom 2. Here it's ok. I still don't like navigating the maps just like the original and that lost soul trap was a dick move lol. This map plays out just like the original but easier and that ending was pretty tough but not too bad. Fun not terrible just not my favorite.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
Pretty good. Nothing much to say here really.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
HOM and wall to the left doesn't fit the scenery, there isn't even any marble in the map, just this. (img)
Tutti-fruity all over the step: (img)



MAP07 ===========================================================================
============================================

scifista42
Oct 2 2015
^The map has zero REJECT table, it's going to break vanilla. Please use a nodebuilder that builds REJECT. I've previously built the REJECT for your map myself and I can do it again, I just inform you about the issue.

traversd
Oct 2 2015
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/56320770/map12_as_techbase6.wad
*increased light level in underground area
*tidied up platform in southern crate room
*reworked end room a bit
*fixed stuck caco
*changed invisibilty secret

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
This map was pretty fun for a factory layout (I hate the factory too). It works here however. I like the BFG secret in this map, it was much needed here. I also found it pretty difficult compared to the last 6. One of the only things I didn't like was the damaging floors surrounding the facility. There's also a stuck Caco here. (img)
(img) Also I'd realign these texture it just doesn't look right

degree23
Jul 27 2015
The two secrets at the start are a little weird, because if you find the first one, the obvious thing to do is to go up the lift and you find the Invisibility and a second secret. This probably only needs to be one secret. More Radiation Suits are probably needed for MP.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
Needs more shells and a chaingun earlier, I had to shoot a chaingunner with a pistol when I ran out of shells but he didn't get the pain chances and I didn't have cover and I ended up shooting him 2 times before he killed me. The orderly rising imps should be fewer, it's not fun to shoot 20 imps with a regular shotgun, 10 imps would feel less of a waste of time and in general I think there should be fewer monsters in the places where there are a lot before you get the SSG, except for the ones outside, I like hiding from them, feels like a mission.
And the shotgun at the start should be more obvious.
EDIT:Nevermind, I took a shitty route, took a different one and things went more balanced.



MAP08 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Great map can't believe it transferred so well to a tech-base map. This one has a lot of more original rooms as well. My favorite was the blue key encounter where 3 monster closets open up on the outside. The map wasn't too difficult and it also reminded me of TNT's Map08 Metal which isn't a bad thing because Metal despite what people say is a fun map.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
It's a bit like this in the original map, but I am running around on near full PG/BFG ammo at the moment.

joe-ilya
Jul 26 2015
This needs an SSG at the start and more ammo.



MAP09 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Oh boy one of my favorites from Doom 2. Will it hold up? Hell yeah it does. This map was really quite difficult in some areas. Especially the room that you play twice and you have an archy and tons of other enemies from the left trying to kill you once you go through the tele. I'm glad that the stupid 30 second closing door wasn't brought back. I really enjoyed this map. The BFG secret was kind of hard to find but there is a new texture on the wall that leads to said secret.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
I'm not sure the SG is in the best of spots at the start.

joe-ilya
Jul 27 2015
Insane, I barely have any shells, health. A chaingun with the shotgun at the start would help balance the map, because pistol shooting a shotgunner or a chaingunner for the weapon costs 80 HP especially when there's no cover and you're angled from everywhere too.



MAP10 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Another brilliantly crafted map. This is another one of my Doom 2 favorites as well and I loved this version too. I liked that both the Mastermind and Cyber were in the same room and you can get them to fight each other. This map is every bit as fun as the original I am looking forward to playing this one again. Also this door that leads to room where the light shuts off and you are ambushed from all sides doesn't have lower unpegged on the door tracks so they move up and down. (img)

degree23
Jul 27 2015
It took me quite a while to realise which map this one was, much longer than any of the previous ones for some reason. Knowing what it is, it's now very obvious from more or less the start, but wasn't the first time through for some reason. Where the BFG is there could probably be 100 less Cells as there is quite a bit of ammo dotted around this map, even with the Spider Mastermind and Cyberdemon on the map.

joe-ilya
Jul 27 2015
The starting step has tutti-fruity.
Way too much health, I ended up not taking the soulsphere and the lots of health, you could put something else, an invisibility or something that isn't health.



MAP11 ===========================================================================
============================================

TheOrganGrinder
Aug 2 2015
May want to change linedef 1012 (tagged 15) to s SR rather than S1 switch; if you find the computer map secret before heading through the door (sector 100) that leads into this subsection of the map, it's very possibly to be presented with the switch that is linedef 1012 before activating the trap it's supposed to be the release for.

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Three remakes of my favorite Doom 2 maps in a row? Awesomeness! This map is pretty damn tough though because unlike the original we aren't giving invulnerability spheres to help run around in circles around the enemies and get them to infight without taking any damage. I liked the way this map was handled here and liked that a megasphere was also used. Fun map great for wrapping up the Tech base themed maps.

joe-ilya
Jul 27 2015
The soulsphere secret is too easy to get, you may wanna fix it, the arachnotrons at the end were a tad bit unfair.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
Quite challenging, though there does seem to be enough health around. Didn't get the last 7 kills as I couldn't work out how to get into sector 72.



MAP12 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
This map was a good map that fuses some of the factory into Underhalls. A lot of fun, and kind of difficult at moments. Like the chaingunners replacing the shotgunners, goddamn that was hard. The ending Arch-vile surprised me a lot as well damn great map had fun with it.

degree23
Jul 28 2015
Not much to say here. Maybe 5 too many Rockets, but otherwise seemed fine.

scifista42
Jul 28 2015
I'm inclined to keep them in, for the IWAD-esque feel that I strived for while making the map. I think the resemblance to Sandy Petersen's style is an important part of the map's appeal.
Again, I'm inclined to keep it in, for the same reason + the fact that it's an unusual homage.

joe-ilya
Jul 27 2015
What's with the paper thin BRWINDOW textures and the stuck mancubus, I understand it's a shoutout to the infamous stuck sergant but it doesn't mean that the MAP24 layout is supposed to have a useless invulnerability in this megawad too.



MAP13 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Another great map this one might be the hardest yet. I like how it actually does fit a city themed map like you are exploring a hotel or something. There were a lot of tough moments here especially what used to be a sewer area. Not bad next

degree23
Jul 28 2015
The sector 166 door should just open regularly. It took a little while to find the switch that opened it as it's not totally obvious given that you're looking elsewhere while being shot. The Computer Map seems rather superfluous as it's in the one secret you probably need it to find!



MAP14 ===========================================================================
============================================

joe-ilya
Mar 26 2016
Fallen dens

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Pretty good remake of bloodfalls it looks like some of it is reversed Like I went down the wrong hole when I started the map. Not bad feels somewhat similar overall. There were 2 issues I had that I just didn't like.
(img) These lights just don't look good how they are textured.
(img) I don't like all these torches either it just looks ridiculous.
Other than that it was well done.

degree23
Jul 28 2015
The texture choice on the cube floating above the exit seems a little weird.



MAP15 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Apr 7 2016
The ambushes are fairly harsh. They need either toning down or more health/armour added.

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Woooooooahh, now that was a difficulty spike. This map is really big and really fun but holy shit it's pretty damn difficult at the halfway point. I'm doing continuous and I was running really low on ammo especially that second Cyber. I felt that 2 cybers might be too much here. I had no choice but to 2 BFG blast them because the plasma is pretty scarce on this map. Instead of the four backpacks I would Replace them with 1 of each bulk ammo for the extra bit of ammo for each gun and I agree with degree on the mega armor ambush, that may need to be toned down a bit jeez. This map is fun though and I liked it. I would also put some bulk cells in the pg secret because those Arch-viles will retract that ammo but I need them for the cyber so I had to use the SSG against them. Good map needs more ammo and maybe less enemies.

degree23
Jul 28 2015
The Armor in sector 502 should probably be a MegaArmor. There are some hefty traps, including the one that's in, and without a BFG (which is very easy to miss on this map as it is very well hidden, maybe too well) this is a tough map. I played through again from a pistol start finding no secrets and killing all non-secret area enemies and I killed the Cyberdemon with 12 Bullets left and nothing else, with a generous amount of infighting and some Berserk usage. Admittedly, you would expect anyone familiar with the layout to find some of the secrets, but if you don't pick up the RL or PG then this map is very biased against the player. (The amount of Rockets and Cells should point towards finding one of these weapons of course) A MegaArmor would help surviving this map. The traps also got extremely boring because it was essentially the same thing about 4 times in a row, with occasional different monsters. All the ambushes basically take away all the health/armour you originally go into the area for, and probably more. I didn't mind the map on a continuous playthrough, but from a Pistol start it's less enjoyable.



MAP16 ===========================================================================
============================================

cannonball
Sep 2 2015
Map 15 music from Requiem by Jeremy Doyle

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Damn fun and difficult. Definite improvement on the chasm. Cannonball really knows how to make good maps as I enjoyed all his work in Nova 2. This map needs to be move up though because god damn the map was super challenging. A close up Cyber in an area and an Arch-vile creeping up behind you while you are trying to battle baddies is insane as it gets. great map.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
The start could be very challenging on just a SG, more than the original map. Moving the SSG to the start may be better. Sector 119 seems inescapable. The Cyberdemon feels really out of place, especially if you don't have the BFG secret by then. This map actually appears later in the IWAD, so the battle shouldn't really be considerably more difficult. It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so enclosed, but I think this fight needs a fundamental change.



MAP17 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Oh boy this map I didn't even finish. I did not like it at all, I'm sorry. Way too many switches that I have no idea what they did. There is another switch that raises a platform and if you didn't see it you can't get that secret. The Cyberdemon wasn't necessary for this map. The map is way to dark for being outside (yes I know the focus is dark but come on.) This map was transformed into a apartment district of some sort IDK. This map seems to not know what it wants to be in some parts. Is it a city map or is it a techbase? This map needs some serious work. Brighten it up remove some of the switches and secrets and get rid of the Cyber it doesn't fit in this map. This map is just bad. But I guess there needs to be that token bad map and this is it. I don't think I have anything positive to say but nice try.
(img) Also these hitscanners are too high up move the windows lower or something.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
The Cyberdemon fight on this map is much better placed. This is a pretty tough map, but there is a large amount of ammo around which makes it not too bad. I found 15 of the secrets, and given just how many switches there were to shoot, and some fake walls, I didn't particularly want to spend any more time hunting around trying to find the last one. This feels easier than Map 16, despite the monster counts in the battles, so I would consider swapping these two around.



MAP18 ===========================================================================
============================================

rdwpa
Apr 14 2016
http://www.mediafire.com/download/nt4w4wwim091vmr/swrm18_rdwpa_fda.lmp
Started off good, but AVs ended up being huge timesinks. The first AV ended up reviving a bunch of stuff and mostly eating up time and providing ammo I guess. Most egregious was an AV that wakes up at the bottom of a pit; all you can do (unless you know the map) is snipe at it tediously.

cannonball
Sep 2 2015
Sinister from the Ultimate doom by Robert Prince

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
At first I was thinking that this map wasn't city enough and then I thought of it's placement and realized that the courtyard uses blood and marble textures so it's in the clear. This is better than the pit but it still has those annoyances from the map that still irritate other than that good placement.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
Again, overall I feel this is easier than Map 16. Linedef 1422 is a "door open stay", but somehow the door became closed again and if that happens while you're in that area, you can't escape. I found the Soul Sphere secret, but not the other one.



MAP19 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Fun map I love abandoned mines and like this map, it's not as good as the original but it does fit the bill and it's fun to play as well. There isn't really much to say the map is a little more tricky in some spot contrary to the original.
(img) I suggest putting a window here. I think it would fit and be less boring looking

degree23
Jul 30 2015
Seems fine to me.



MAP20 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Please change that name lol. This map was ok. It's got some tricky spots and uses a lot of cacodemons which I appreciate, there are some unfair spots though. Those chaingunners in the pit area always take a chunk out of my health no matter what I try and there's a lot of rev snipers that I didn't like. This map felt like it was trying to be hard and it was but it just came off as desperate. I didn't like how you had to lower a platform to get to the exit. It doesn't make much sense. And the exit looks bad too. This map could use a tune up. I think it's position should be moved.
(img) Please don't do something like this it's not funny and you can't even get to it.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
The MegaArmor needs to be more accessible I think as it's not totally easy to find and the map is extremely challenging without it. I didn't get the secret, but it seems to be the health potion behind the exit, which seems rather pointless to me.



MAP21 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Apr 7 2016
I've said a couple times needs to be reworked bad because. There's way too many unfair moments. Especially the damaging floor at the beginning. What if you don't have enough health on continuous to get past the very beginning?

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 13 2015
Wtf? Pain floors to start the map? I'm already expecting the worst. And it was. I don't want to be mean but this shouldn't of been accepted, it's ugly, it has plutonia style difficulty which is out of place for a Doom 2 style wad. The music is boring. The texturing was ugly. There's walls where enemies are shooting you through them. This map is bad I'm sorry. It's too out of place imo and needs some serious rework. Please Blue feena you have the general idea down but the execution is not great. Once again didn't finish. Put on the invincibility to find some flaws. I also didn't like the final encounter there is way too much going on and a cyberdemon to top it off. He isn't even useful to help fight the enemies and I also hate how if you fall in the lava there is no way out. This map is just... it needs work lol
(img) Floor textures changed without changing floor heights and a weird dirt texture in the doorway. Red dirt in second.
(img) More weird floor texture going on.
(img) Since when is this ever a good idea?
(img) More forced damaging floor with no radiation suit yay!

degree23
Jul 30 2015
Missed one secret somewhere along the way, which I think was where there were 2 Mancubii, a Soul Sphere and an Armor. This is definitely the most challenging map so far. A little extra firepower near the start would probably help, but otherwise the weapon and ammo balance seemed alright.



MAP22 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Jul 30 2015
Seems fine to me.



MAP23 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Apr 7 2016
BTW I did go back and re-texture some of the ugliness of the map for the next official Alpha release.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/gs25nnbe3fckhfc/Vanilla+23.wad

degree23
Jul 30 2015
The new MIDI is excellent. These (http://i.imgur.com/Hr4rHCJ.png) two Spectres are still stuck on each other.
You're still asking the player to kill an awful lot of stuff with only a SG and CG. I made it to the end of the "initial" fight (sectors 12, 289, the 200/201 section and the area around sector 33) with 10/21, with the main problems being it taking forever to actually kill the HKs/Baron/PEs. I didn't want to go into the corridor with sectors 200/201 but I needed the 25 at the end. With the quantity, but more importantly, strength of monster that you've placed here, I really think a SSG is needed. The original location for the Armor could probably do with a 25 or two.
It's not impossible, but unless this ends up moving to Map 28/29 (I do feel it needs moving later regardless), then it's too difficult a start. The SSG wouldn't make it a walkover either mind you. (I actually used 3 BFG shots and several Rockets in my actual playthrough of this map)
-
Refuelling Base is indeed not easy from a pistol start, but I think that the challenge has risen disproportionately, even with its late position in the WAD. You can feasibly kill a lot of the early monsters in the original with a Pistol, but that is not the case here with the SG. (With Cacos, PEs, HKs and Baron all in the first couple of areas if you go forwards) I just played the start of this again from scratch, and there is barely enough ammo for you to kill the initial monsters without venturing further into the map, for which an Armor is definitely needed. Also, the lone Chaingunner near the CG feels a bit odd mixed in with all the other monsters. It makes it so that if you want a CG, you just have to kill him, rather than picking up the one that activates the trap and lets all the Spectres loose.
The proper MIDI of Orion wouldn't be too bad, but while it has a nice harmony in the middle, this map maybe lends itself to something that's more aggressive the whole way through.
-
Oh my God, please use a proper midi of Orion. It has clean guitars for a lot of the start when they should be distorted, there aren't any of the bends in the song and it doesn't slow down in the middle when it gets to the harmony, which overall makes it sounds terrible. The start was quite tricky coming in with decent health and all weapons, on Pistol start it would probably be insane. You probably need Armor right away as there's no way to get to where it is without awakening a whole bunch of monsters, and in particular the 2 Pain Elementals which could make things even worse. Some Spectres in sector 291 were stuck on each other. Rather than sectors 195, 223 and 196 being secret, it could be 28, 27 and 25. They are narrow and I actually was able to run over 195 in both directions without triggering the secret. I didn't get the Invulnerability secret. Overall a crazy map!



MAP24 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Jul 30 2015
I feel like there should be a couple more Radiation Suits around, because the exploration is quite restrictive otherwise. Despite that, I feel that this map is substantially easier than Map 23. I got the Invulnerability, but didn't find the other secret.



MAP25 ===========================================================================
============================================

cannonball
Sep 2 2015
Excalibur from Rise of the triad by Lee Jackson

degree23
Aug 2 2015
Oh man, I forgot that I hadn't seen this map yet. Took me 23 minutes to complete and of all the maps so far, this is the one I'll be most excited about seeing someone UV-Max. (In much less than 23 minutes of course) Chaos aplenty in this map, challenging even from a continuous playthrough, but also enough health and ammo around for those doing a Pistol start. A great job on this map overall.



MAP26 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Aug 2 2015
Yep, short and to the point, with an appropriate title. Good map here but considerably easier than Map 25, if only because of its brevity. If you die to the 4 AVs, it only takes about 20 seconds to get back to the same point. I'd move this before Map 25.

scifista42
Jun 4 2015
I'm not changing floor heights because it would be pointless for the gameplay I've already created there, as an unnecessary distraction not as natural as plain ground is for this particular layout (and I already have many visplanes, too). I've raised the ceiling on your advice, though. That's the only change.

traversd
Jun 4 2015
Main suggestion I have for that map would be to vary the floor height. I know the original was flat but it carried that OK given the gimmick/theme. With the transistion to a hell theme it doesn't translate so well I think. I'm not suggesting to put all sorts of floor changes in but maybe have the start and finish step down into the main arena? The plasma secret could be a one way drop of 64 units into the lava with a secluded teleport that puts the player back into the main arena - that way the rad suit and crusher can be removed (tho I'd drop the lava damage to medium or low).
Similarly the roof structure feels thin - if you raise the sky sector to the next line on the marble texture (~24units I think) that looks a bit more solid.
BTW - whilst not an issue in SP, I think you can get HOM once all four doors are open in the main arena - so more a coop issue.

walter confalonieri
Jun 3 2015
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/attachment.php?postid=1377883 (v3)
This map is pretty cruel and also the best re-interpretation of MAP32 in a hellish assest so far for this project. I just found it too hard with the archvile \ cyber trap at the end of the level...

tourniquet
Jun 3 2015
You can cheese the Vile ambush if you stay inside the PG secret.
Not a bad idea to turn it into a rather short map, zinkai's version was certainly sluggish so i guess i'm fine with this one.



MAP27 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Aug 2 2015
Not much to say here as it seemed to play well. It is quite a bit easier than Map 25 though.



MAP28 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Apr 7 2016
This needs a serious rework because it's actually easier than the original. It has less monsters and less threatening monsters. Even if you move it to the earliest point in the last episode it is still way too easy.

degree23
Aug 2 2015
Hmm. This is a good map on its own, but in the context of this WAD I don't think it fits that well. For starters, it actually felt easier than the original in many places which shouldn't really be given how much later this map has been moved to. The original has 144 monsters and this has only 99. (On UV) Some thoughts:
- The Cacos by the PG and Demons at the BFG ambush are almost identical to the original map, and are prime places to ramp up the difficulty. Something like a PE or two with the Cacos and an HK ambush after you get the BFG could work. This would also allow you to put some extra Cells in the secret to the side of the BFG, which doesn't currently have anything much to speak of.
- The Spider Mastermind and the section through the eastern teleport are actually easier than the original map, or at least less threatening. Because the Spider Mastermind and Arachnatrons take up so much space, you can't put as many of them in that area as you can with a Cyberdemon and Barons, and the end result is you have a fight that doesn't feel as epic, and is certainly a lot less dangerous than the original. I would be tempted to swap this fight back to the original monsters, as that's actually quite a powerful set of enemies as it is. Either that, or make this area larger (substantially) so you can fit in 2 Spider Masterminds and a bunch of extra Arachnatrons. You actually have space for this as it's at the south of the map and there's nothing else below it, so there's room to make this area larger and place more monsters in.
- Sector 155 just needs more monsters overall.
- Sector 187 could be expanded with some more tunnels and have monsters in there to fight, possibly adding in a blue key that you need to access somewhere to continue the map.
- The section with the red key is another good place where you could make it more difficult, by replacing some of the Imps with something more dangerous like HKs.
- More ammo would be needed dotted around the map to deal with more monsters.
As I said though, on its own this is a perfectly fine map and very well done. But as an Episode 3 map, it is just way too easy, in part due to the fact it's got 50 monsters less.



MAP29 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Apr 7 2016
Like 28, this also needs a rework. I don't think it's a particularly good map to have as the penultimate one in terms of layout, though the main issues are the lack of secrets and how easy it is.

degree23
Aug 2 2015
Hmm. As a Map 29 this is really unsatisfying. Similar to Map 28, it is just nowhere near difficult enough, and in many ways could be considered easier than the original. The lack of secrets doesn't help either. I don't know specifically what to suggest here. Lots more monsters, more higher tier enemies with maybe an extra area or two to fight, maybe one as an extension of where the 25 Rocket secret is in the original map.



MAP30 ===========================================================================
============================================

degree23
Apr 7 2016
Needs a MegaSphere at the start and there are too many AVs, especially in the 4 AV + Revenants ambush.

degree23
Aug 2 2015
As it's the last map, and given the initial fights, there should probably be a MegaSphere right at the start. The quadruple Cyberdemon fight is quite challenging, and I think monster block lines are needed here because I managed to BFG all 4 of them off the platforms. This map is tedious because of the amount of AV encounters you have. It's mainly tolerable, even if slightly unfair, due to some of the ambushes in the original layout of this map. But FOUR AVs in sector 161? That's an absolute joke. At least 2 of them should be removed. Unless you know that's coming, you are almost certainly taking 3-4 AV blasts, especially because they're at the back and can't even be shot by the Revenants. I'd remove 2 of the AVs and put the other 2 at the front. There was a weird texture thing here (http://i.imgur.com/3S34Hqi.png). Overall, a good idea, but way too many AVs. If this was Switcheroom 3 - Plutonia Edition, and this was Map 11 in the Map 30 slot I could accept it, but it's not.



MAP31 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Not a bad secret however I would of liked to see only SS nazis Demons and boss monsters because the imps were out of place here. Not much else to say its a decent map.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
Seemed fine.



MAP32 ===========================================================================
============================================

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 2 2015
Also not a bad super secret level. I didn't like the platform to platform onto spiky ledges it was weird but this map does Dead Simple justice and the Cyber Demon was well used blocking the exit.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
Also seemed fine.



OVERALL ===========================================================================
==========================================

degree23
Apr 7 2016
23 and 25 are good maps to go in 28 and 29 as they stand, but 28/29 both need reworking regardless of where they end up.

Tactical Stiffy
Oct 19 2015
And Map 21 needs to be fixed bad! It's unplayable to me. Same with MAP 17

degree23
Oct 18 2015
Map 23 -> Later (28/29)
Map 25 -> Later (28/29)
Map 26 -> Earlier (22/23)
Map 27 -> Earlier (25)
Map 28 -> Earlier (24, but I think this could be beefed up and stay somewhere near the end)
Map 29 -> Earlier (23)
Those were my thoughts before, and my main thoughts on order are still:
- Swap 25 and 29.
- Swap 23 and 28.
Map 28 and Map 29 are just not fit for purpose where they are, and the current Map 28 needs a serious rework regardless. Map 30 still needs a MegaSphere right at the start and also needs several of the repetitive AV ambushes changing, most notably the last group of 4. This isn't Plutonia Map 11 we're copying here.

Magnusblitz
Aug 12 2015
Heh, damn my two maps are dark, I was watching you play and thinking "I don't remember them being THAT dark..." Seems like the issue is port differences, software Doom brightens up the walls dramatically the closer you get to them, whereas GZDoom keeps everything the same brightness level regardless of where the player is standing. Because of the software effect I often make rooms on the darker side since they will brighten up considerably as the player moves through them.

Archi
Aug 12 2015
http://imgur.com/ivJNP2i - caco stuck here.
http://imgur.com/L9urEwN - common platform please.
http://imgur.com/RdSidQa - this crate...
http://imgur.com/HqHBQhV - there's many misaligns, but this one is the strongest.

degree23
Aug 2 2015
Overall, a great effort by all concerned, and really does the job quite well. To summarise the things I feel most strongly could do with being altered:
- The Map 2 Revenants are out of place, but the progression of difficulty for the first theme actually feels ok.
- The Map 15 ambushes need a bit of reworking as they are quite harsh, and all the major items (such as the health and armour that you actually probably need) trigger one, where it's very likely you end up with less health than when you entered.
- Map 16's sector 119 needs an escape and the Cyberdemon fight doesn't feel right. It's an enclosed area, very difficult without the BFG and this should be an easier version of the map as it's earlier in this WAD. A couple of Barons would work well here, but the Cyberdemon doesn't.
- In Map 18 it's possible to get trapped in the sector 223 area, despite the fact the door should stay open. I don't know how it closed, but maybe an exit switch that opens the door would help.
- In Map 20, the MegaArmor needs to be easier to find and the secret in this level seems a bit pointless.
- In Map 23 (version 2) there are still 2 Spectres stuck on each other and you really need an SSG at the start.
- Map 24 could use a couple more Radiation Suits.
- Map 28 needs a large rework in terms of monsters.
- Map 29 needs some secrets and more monsters
- Map 30 needs less AVs, and there is certainly no reason to have 4 in a single ambush.
Map moves:
Map 23 -> Later (28/29)
Map 25 -> Later (28/29)
Map 26 -> Earlier (22/23)
Map 27 -> Earlier (25)
Map 28 -> Earlier (24, but I think this could be beefed up and stay somewhere near the end)
Map 29 -> Earlier (23)
I don't think Circle of Death is a great layout for Map 29, I think either the current Map 23 or 25 would work very well there, probably 25.
Fundamentally a fantastic WAD here. I'm really looking forward to watching UV Max runs, particularly of the later maps. It feels like there was some good quality control as there was almost nothing game breaking I came across. A few tweaks here and there are needed, and hopefully you'll get lots of input from others, but overall this was thoroughly enjoyable to play through!

Tactical Stiffy
Aug 1 2015
Overall from the first 11 maps I would probably just switch MAP02 and MAP04 only for the enemy consistency. All the rest of the maps seem to play out pretty well. So far I actually enjoy this more than switcheroom 1. I am ready to start the city themed episode yay.

Tactical Stiffy
Jul 30 2015
Alright I'm going to do some playtesting on this and help with map order because there were a few that I tested a while back that have questionable placements.

degree23
Jul 30 2015
I'm enjoying these maps quite a bit, especially ones that take an earlier level and put it later. (And therefore make it harder)

degree23
Jul 27 2015
Having reached the end of this theme, I'm not too sure I would change much of the order as although there's a fairly challenging third map, many of the later ones are much more demanding, if only because there are more HKs/etc around. I am also running around on almost full PG/BFG ammo. My ammo is 400/100/81/440, even after fairly heavy usage of the RL/BFG in Map 11 on the huge amount of monsters.
This WAD has been very enjoyable thus far.

degree23
Jul 27 2015
I'm gonna go through this in Zandronum on UV continuously, mainly to see what the ammo situation is like as it's possibly something that not every considered when making their individual map. (Naturally, of course, as you can't know what the previous maps were going to be!) It's possible some weapon/ammo carryover may totally wreck some maps. Unless I comment otherwise, I will have found all secrets and killed everyone.
-
Will continue my playthrough soon. Highly enjoyable so far!



JOE_ILYA'S VERSION ===========================================================================
===============================

joe-ilya
Nov 5 2016
My fixes :
MAP01 : Added -nomonsters route that opens up in 5 minutes, all imps in the cages are crushed upon entering the exit room.
MAP05 : Useless stuck spectres are now teleporting everywhere, removed invulnerability, replaced the goofy midi.
MAP06 : Sprawling line of armor bonuses indicating where you can go, exit crate quickly lowers and gets back up upon approach, removed invulnerability, added midi.
MAP07 : Removed first soulsphere "secret", added health at the exit switch for continuous players.
MAP08 : Fixed tutti-fruity glitch, replaced several stuck demons with imps, fixed a HOM and an unfitting marble texture.
MAP09 : Less health and ammo, lights are fixed on the ceiling.
MAP10 : Shotgun is now visible from start POV, added some rad suits, added midi.
MAP11 : Moved player start a little backwards so he'll see the shotgun to the right, added midi.
MAP12 : Soulsphere at start, can't void glide behind exit switch, added midi.
MAP13 : Shitload of changes. (My map)
MAP15 : More ammo and health.
MAP32 : Made the layout uncampable. (my map)
MAP17 : Fixed HOM in nukage, replaced cyberdemon with spider mastermind.
MAP23 : Removed invulnerabilities.
MAP24 : Put more ammo for the people who won't find the secrets.
MAP28 : Replaced an entire map that was hugely turn down by many.
MAP30 : Put a big black arrow pointing towards the otherwise inobvious teleport that gives you way to the right switch to open walls to boss, made final boss more threatning by adding monsters and monster spawners in the same arena.
The rest I either added difficulty levels and/or midi or neither.
Also note that levels are from the order of my own compilation.

joe-ilya
Apr 23 2016
Someone hosted a Zandronum server with my version in it and I had a good run through it with some other people. No bugs found.

joe-ilya
Apr 6 2016
I made an alpha 3: Features new midis, map fixes, updates, difficulties and placement and level title namings with graphics, all what's left to do is to add a .deh file and a make text file to IDgames and new graphics for M_DOOM TITLEPIC CREDITS BOSSBACK and INTERPIC.
Replaced "Evil Church" with a map I made.(picture)
https://www.mediafire.com/?dbglw72wswdw30t

Last edited by scifista42 on Nov 6 2016 at 16:34

Old Post Nov 6 2016 16:27 #
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tourniquet
Forum Regular


Posts: 944
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Way too much time has passed here, a few of the involved mappers aren't even active anymore (C30N9, BlueFeena, Fernito) & others. There's no way to get any updates for those maps without breaking your own "rules" and doing it by yourself Scifista.
Personally i don't care much about my maps here anymore besides some odd nostalgia but there a lot of other great maps in here like CB,Magnus,traversd,Jaws etc.
Would be a shame for the work of those to eternally gather dust in pre release limbo. So just do something about it or let Joe or Jaws do it, idc whatsoever....

Old Post Nov 6 2016 20:20 #
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cannonball
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I think the first thing that needs doing is re-uploading that second alpha as the link is now dead. I will certainly endeavour to fix any issues with my maps for a start.
No worries about the delays, I am certainly one who cannot complain about this :P

Old Post Nov 6 2016 20:54 #
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scifista42
Why don't I have a custom title by now!?


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Walter confalonieri reuploaded it earlier this year, so I'm going to use his link, it's more permanent than any file hosting site I'd use:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/5...2_-_Alpha_2.zip

EDIT: I put this link to the OP too. Also, thanks, walter.

Last edited by scifista42 on Nov 6 2016 at 21:07

Old Post Nov 6 2016 20:59 #
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cannonball
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scifista42 said:
Walter confalonieri reuploaded it earlier this year, so I'm going to use his link, it's more permanent than any file hosting site I'd use:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/5...2_-_Alpha_2.zip

Sweet cheers, tell you what I will play through these maps tomorrow, well as far as I can anyway.

Old Post Nov 6 2016 21:03 #
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degree23
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tourniquet said:
Way too much time has passed here, a few of the involved mappers aren't even active anymore (C30N9, BlueFeena, Fernito) & others.

Well then first step is probably to get in contact with the authors that are still around and worry about orphaned maps afterwards.

Old Post Nov 6 2016 21:11 #
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cannonball
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Well lets start this

MAP01 - "Iconic" (by Jayextee) - MAP30 in Base style
To be honest, this just felt like a fusion of map01 and map30, I think the layout could have been reworked to make the map play like a base map and not require a lot of the same mechanics of the icon of sin. I mean the map looks okay and it is easy but still I think this could be done better.

MAP02 - "Coolant Zone" (by Magnusblitz) - MAP15 in Base style
I think that doing this in a good manner was always going to be a tough ask, this is a mixed bag, the yellow key outdoor area is great, other areas are not so good. The one plus is that it doesn't feel like it is merging map15 with map02. I am not sure that I could offer much to improve this really.

Old Post Nov 7 2016 21:08 #
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Magnusblitz
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cannonball said:
MAP02 - "Coolant Zone" (by Magnusblitz) - MAP15 in Base style
I think that doing this in a good manner was always going to be a tough ask, this is a mixed bag, the yellow key outdoor area is great, other areas are not so good. The one plus is that it doesn't feel like it is merging map15 with map02. I am not sure that I could offer much to improve this really.

What did you not like about the other areas? Feel just like a re-textured MAP15 too much? Just boring on its own merits? Or something else?

EDIT: Reading your original comment from 2015 that scifista reposted I gather it was not liking the indoor section's overly hallway nature.

EDIT2: I believe I made most of the suggested fixes to the map, though upon replaying it myself I noticed another issue - if the player jumps from the secret RL to the green armor area before lowering it below they can get stuck in the green armor area. Will need to fix, remind me.

Last edited by Magnusblitz on Nov 8 2016 at 00:58

Old Post Nov 8 2016 00:46 #
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Death Egg
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Posts: 1153
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How goes progress on this?

I was thinking and remembering earlier today about how I wanted Final Switcheroom to go, once I had finished Switcheroom 1 and 2. (Before real life caught up with me and I had to drop out) Rather than doing it the way the first two Switcherooms did it, specifically the second one, I wanted to have all TNT maps remade as if they were in Plutonia, and all Plutonia maps as if they were made in TNT. As such the TNT>Plutonia would be played in Plutonia, and Plutonia>TNT would be played in TNT. If Final Switcheroom becomes a thing, I would prefer the leader go by this idea. I think it could turn out to be two really awesome megawads. Of course, the second one should really be finished before considering this.

Also, I've noticed that other projects that try to do both Final Doom megawads always lose steam, so perhaps start with Plutonia>TNT,) then do TNT/Plutonia when it's almost done/is done?

One last thing... I also had planned to do a Switcheroom 64 as a final entry...

Old Post Feb 6 2017 07:27 #
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scifista42
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Death Egg said:
How goes progress on this?

The switcherooming concept seems to have gone out of fashion years ago, most people lost interest in this project, and the few ones who are still occasionally active keep suggesting to change certain rules of the project in order to get it done sooner, which I'm against, because I consider those particular rules very important to be preserved. So the progress pretty much stays in place, as the proposed playtesting phase didn't take off, probably mostly due to me failing to get to the task myself again, but I still plan on doing it eventually. Anyone is welcome to help with it, too.

Old Post Feb 6 2017 08:03 #
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Death Egg
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I suppose if this one has lagged to completion this far, then perhaps it's for the best the other ones don't get started and wind up lingering in developmental hell for eternity. Ah well. Still, hoping this one gets to be completed!

Old Post Feb 6 2017 08:17 #
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Death Egg
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Is there any way to contact all the inactive mappers and just get permission to modify them without having to approve every last edit, or have you already tried this? There should be a list of every map and the permissions granted per author to help with sorting this out.

Old Post Feb 6 2017 20:10 #
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scifista42
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Trying to contact authors and ask for their continued cooperation or permission to modify their maps (while making sure they will be correctly informed about the applying rules and the state of the project development before they decide) was on the plan right after finishing the playtesting phase, as it makes sense to me to do this before deciding to reject or modify any maps, but not before gathering as much feedback as possible about the maps.

Old Post Feb 6 2017 20:25 #
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FragMan!
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I loved Wolfencity so much and it's background music. I'd like to suggest the author of this one an improved version of that music just to get rid of that fadeout which kinda annoys me.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5733607/tech.mid

Old Post Feb 14 2017 22:52 #
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