Okuplok Incident

Hello to anyone that bothers to read this thread. I have a question out of curiosity because I am a very nosy person. Can someone explain the incident that happened with Okuplok.

I thought he was a great runner and everything he had just vanished... for what reason I don't know. I don't really have an opinion whether it was TAS or not, but I really would like to know the indepth detail please.

I've read a few posts about what happened, but I have no idea how it started and ended. I also attempted to email him but nothing...

Okuplok is a cheater

Thats a nice blunt way to put it.

It still puzzles me that he deletes every know information about himself.

It started on page 51 of the Misc. Demos Thread: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-speed-demos/23669-miscellaneous-demos/51/ (go to VinceDSS's first post and read on)

Also, some discussion in the Speed of Doom Thread: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-speed-demos/50315-speed-of-doom-demos-complevel-9/

And here are all of Okuplok's posts: http://www.doomworld.com/vb/search.php?action=showresults&searchid=353812

Oh, something slightly interesting happened, lets elevate it to super drama soap opera WWF WWE status.
If he cheated I don't blame him, because one of his first demos was for that last islandish map in scythe2 or something. And we were all like 'your run was awesome.. but um, you missed one monster so it doesn't count'. Then he made another and we were all like 'oh um you used the hud so that run doesn't count either'. I think at that point he decided to take the noble path of supervillainry by using TAS features as a deserving FU to our pedantry. However, I don't think he ever claimed to use TAS; it was just suspicion, and as far as I know, TAS can't be proven for anybody else's demos either. Even if you play on DOS or whatever, can't you just purposely make your computer play the game slower by having multiple simultaneously running dummy programs count to infinite? Anyway, I suspect he actually is a really good player even if he used TAS sometimes.

Its a real shame. I was really excited to see another Doomer similar to You guys (TOD & GGG. I didn't know that emotion could get this severe, but I do understand it.

I'm going to find out a way to get in contact with him and talk to him about it even if he is hard to convince. I would have retaliated if I were him (mostly cuz I have a temper).

Anyway thank you for all of your help and being so open with this.

gggmork said:
If he cheated I don't blame him, because one of his first demos was for that last islandish map in scythe2 or something. And we were all like 'your run was awesome.. but um, you missed one monster so it doesn't count'. Then he made another and we were all like 'oh um you used the hud so that run doesn't count either'. I think at that point he decided to take the noble path of supervillainry by using TAS features as a deserving FU to our pedantry.

I'm glad that from your other comments and efforts it's pretty apparent that you don't practice what you are defending here. If someone objects to rules and standards used to compare demos, they can simply be honest, record differently, and make their point in comments if necessary. Getting deceitful about it out of the blue, on the other hand, is indeed blameworthy.

It's strange that you question drama and add to it in the process by trying to blame us (yourself included?) for his possible cheating. Let's keep it simple: Various long-time or experienced runners found Okuplok's demos suspicious, posted their doubts, and discussed technical aspects. As a result, some feel he cheated, some aren't sure.

myk said:

As a result, some feel he cheated, some aren't sure.

Of course his reaction to simple questions from said experienced players pretty much tells the true tale of his actions.

First post on this :

"I found okuplok demos here and on youtube pretty fishy, he barely takes any damages and looks way too easy. Even godlike players like anders, vile or gusta don't come out of big fights totally unhurt.

I suspect use of TAS, yet I understand I may be wrong :)
Check out on youtube, he has plenty of demos not released here that look way too easy."

Where's the question ? I just see accusations of TAS.

For that matter, anyone who is genuinely interested in seeing what happened can look up the posts right here. Unless posts were directly deleted within hours or things also happened outside of these boards, everything that is in Misc. Demos now is the full conversation as I remember it. It directly started as a witch hunt and Okuplok was deemed a cheater before he could have even answered ; then when he left to, by his own words, end the argument, his lack of answer somehow "proves" that he is cheating.

Take a deep breath, and ditch both the armchair psychology and the revisionism at once, then maybe you'll realise being treated like crap for sharing demos for a 15 years old video game doesn't exactly make for a compelling reason to want to keep being involved in this community.

Oh please. If he really gave a shit about the game or put even remotely that much time into it he'd defend himself and his 'painstaking' work. Plain and simple. You doing it for him doesn't count.

Aslo 'witch hunt' is a little on the dramatic side, don't you think? So he's dodging shit from behind with minute precise movements, and someone simply pointed it out. He could have taken the high road and recorded a demo with an engine where no tools exist, but on the other hand dropping the game you supposedly spent hundreds of hours perfecting because 3 or 4 people thought you played suspiciously is definitely the better course of action.

If he really gave a shit about the game or put even remotely that much time into it he'd defend himself and his 'painstaking' work.

Sure, because everyone acts and thinks the exact same way. That is why we're all playing CoD:MW2 right now and not some old game from the 90s.

Whatever. Armchair psychology from a random internet guy. How completely original and convincing.

You doing it for him doesn't count.

I don't especially care about Okuplok ; though if you doubt what he says and makes up your mind about what goes on in other people's minds, you probably won't believe me either. Good luck finding any sort of connection between him and me, but I'm sure lack of factual evidence isn't going to stop you any less that it stopped people from calling Okuplok a cheater.

My stance should be simple enough for anyone to understand by now, it's the principle of the whole "guilty without trial, popularity contest" thing that gets to me. Beyond that, I don't have any problem with the current situation, but just want to set the record straight when I see plain bullshit like your first, factually incorrect, post.

Aslo 'witch hunt' is a little on the dramatic side, don't you think?

I think I don't see much difference in tone between that and an expression such as "the true tale of his actions", but surely that must be because I'm a foreigner.

So he's dodging shit from behind with minute precise movements, and someone simply pointed it out. He could have taken the high road and recorded a demo with an engine where no tools exist, but on the other hand dropping the game you supposedly spent hundreds of hours perfecting because 3 or 4 people thought you played suspiciously is definitely the better course of action.

Who says he stopped playing the game ?

Sharing demos and playing the game (or even recording demos) are two very different things. Hell, even sharing demos to Doomworld and sharing demos privately are very different things.

Notwithstanding the issue of TAS demos that can be technically indistinguishable from doom2.exe demos (as I understand it), why would he want to go through the effort of proving himself to this community ?

You're again assuming his mind works a certain and specific way, maybe like yours. I, personally, have done things exactly like that - stopped contributing to communities because I didn't like the response I was getting, and cared about the stuff I was doing more than the people I was sharing it with. I've seen the same behavior from some other people, occasionally. So to claim Okuplok can't have eventually acted that way because "people don't act that way" just makes me smirk. People can get passionate and people can drop everything on a whim just because. To assume that any logical reaction for an innocent man would be to go through the steps of proving himself to the community is having a very inflated sense of self importance.

Phml said:

Beyond that, I don't have any problem with the current situation, but just want to set the record straight when I see plain bullshit like your first, factually incorrect, post.

Just for those of us that are around other humans on a regular basis, when they're innocent, they tend to want to prove it. When they pack up their shit and leave, it's because they had no stake in the community or what they were doing. They don't give a fuck, so why should I give a fuck. Yeah I might be wrong, but I highly doubt it. You can talk whatever contrived shit you want, but neither of us knows, and actions always speak louder than words.

Phml said:

You're again assuming his mind works a certain and specific way, maybe like yours. I, personally, have done things exactly like that - stopped contributing to communities because I didn't like the response I was getting, and cared about the stuff I was doing more than the people I was sharing it with. I've seen the same behavior from some other people, occasionally. So to claim Okuplok can't have eventually acted that way because "people don't act that way" just makes me smirk. People can get passionate and people can drop everything on a whim just because.

But someone that talented? I just have a hard time buying that, especially when his demos got such huge praise from so many. Then come a few detractors and it all goes to hell? I mean come on, man.

When they pack up their shit and leave, it's because they had no stake in the community

Bingo. Exactly what I was saying.

They don't give a fuck, so why should I give a fuck. Yeah I might be wrong, but I highly doubt it. You can talk whatever contrived shit you want, but neither of us knows, and actions always speak louder than words.

Basically, you're just angry you're not being considered like the shining beacon of light as you should be, and so decide to crap on people without any regard for the truth, the only goal being to generally make some noise and shout "I exist".

Those of us that are around children on a regular basis tend to know that attitude, yes, and we recognize for the sad cry for attention it is when adults speak in the same way on the Internet.

You're the exact example of what I dislike in the way Okuplok was treated, and there's nothing more to add to that.

Armchair psychology? More like psychology 101.

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=564817#post564817

DomRem was accused of TAS after the very first demo he submitted, and the 'evidence' was much less 'convincing' (weird mouse movements). I told him to share some of our coop demos and his other ZDoom demos with Opulent. Problem solved.

Phml said:

Basically, you're just angry you're not being considered like the shining beacon of light as you should be, and so decide to crap on people without any regard for the truth, the only goal being to generally make some noise and shout "I exist".

Oh so this is that armchair psychology you were talking about, I need to take some notes here. Random analysis from foreign internet guy, very convincing!

Phml said:
I suspect use of TAS, yet I understand I may be wrong :)
Check out on youtube, he has plenty of demos not released here that look way too easy."

Where's the question ? I just see accusations of TAS.

I see it right there in what you quoted. "I may be wrong" implies he isn't totally certain and is willing to debate or double-check his suspicion.

For that matter, anyone who is genuinely interested in seeing what happened can look up the posts right here.

Already linked to above by TimeOfDeath. Your link is not using the default page length of 30 posts, so most people that didn't edit their settings to 10 posts per page or something will get an empty thread page.

Unless posts were directly deleted within hours or things also happened outside of these boards, everything that is in Misc. Demos now is the full conversation as I remember it.

Are you accusing me or Grazza, the active demo mods, of some sort of conspiracy? Seriously, if I were to read your posts in the negative light you used on Vince's comments, I'd have to think something in those lines.

Take a deep breath, and ditch both the armchair psychology and the revisionism at once, then maybe you'll realise being treated like crap for sharing demos for a 15 years old video game doesn't exactly make for a compelling reason to want to keep being involved in this community.

To consider that he was treated like crap, you have to be pretty sure he did not cheat. I personally can't decide whether he cheated, especially since I'm aware many people can play much better than I do, and like Sedlo once said "you never know what's possible," although some of his stuff does look, as the guys noted, alarmingly clean. I do respect the guys in the community, many of which are more experienced than me at recording nuances or messing with TAS, so I don't really see a problem with how they dealt with the issue. Pardon me if this sounds rude, but I don't see you as that much of an expert in detecting TAS, so I fail to see the merit of your high-horsing and accusations of witch hunting.

If we are such assholes, why did we have an amiable and open response to kimo_xvirus admitting he cheated?

You're the exact example of what I dislike in the way Okuplok was treated, and there's nothing more to add to that.

If wanted to address Use3D's comment, why not address it immediately instead of trying to make some sort of general case accusation that can only derive in more drama, speculation and distrust? It's not like Use3D's comments mattered much in any discussions we had about Okuplok, compared to those of the more experienced runners or technical experts. Demo-wise, he's just some smaller guy who made a short comment here or there.

First of all I just wanna say: DOOM IS NOT JUST SOME OLD GAME FROM THE 90'S, DOOM IS LIFE!!!! :D :D :D

I didn't really see it as a witch-hunt either, especially now that I re-read the posts. Vince just had a feeling and shared it with us, but he kept saying that he knew he could be wrong. Same goes for everyone else who posted in the thread until Okuplok deleted his youtube account. They just said it seemed like TAS but that it could of course be normal playing. Okuplok didn't really interact on the forum. We barely knew him and I think we just wanted some kind of reassurance that his demos were legit, because they're great demos. I don't think he was treated badly - his demos were always praised. But within 10 hours of someone saying "I suspect use of TAS, yet I understand I may be wrong :)" he deleted his youtube account. Not that that proves anything, but it certainly made me think he probably did use TAS. I personally can't really understand someone like that just dropping everything and leaving, but I guess it could happen - that's what Death-Destiny did and he was an active mapper and demo recorder. It was obvious that people were impressed by Okuplok's demos and yet he chose to disappear. If he wanted the speculation to end, he could have proved himself. By leaving forever, the speculation will never end.

He was invited here from Skulltag by kimo_xvirus. I'd be interested to know if kimo told him about prboom-plus and the TAS features.

More speculation: in his hr2 map32 demo I also wtf'ed at how he intentionally avoided some medkits after releasing the monsters at the start. Knowing how many attempts it takes to come out alive after releasing the monsters, I would have grabbed that health asap until I was at 100.

myk said:

It's not like Use3D's comments mattered much in any discussions we had about Okuplok, compared to those of the more experienced runners or technical experts. Demo-wise, he's just some smaller guy who made a short comment here or there.

Ah myk's always got my back. I may not be as into demos or 'the scene' as some, but I can still tell when someone's full of shit...speaking of which...

TimeOfDeath said:

First of all I just wanna say: DOOM IS NOT JUST SOME OLD GAME FROM THE 90'S, DOOM IS LIFE!!!! :D :D :D

Phml loses everyone here.

I would probably be the person to delete everything and disappear (but I would show up again). I'm am not good at dealing with pressure and doubts and I'm a bit emotionally unstable.

Maybe he will come back. I have nothing else relevant or intelligent to say so good bye and thank you all for the info even the people arguing here!

if i get this right, there's no proof of okuplok cheating, yet some people accuse him of doing so just based on demos looking "too easy"?
ehm... then don't wonder he left the community apparently.

i just watched some of his sunder demos after reading this thread. indeed he dodges everything using the most economical movements, including rev missiles at short range, and cyber rockets despite having his screen obscured by plasma. on the other hand, doom monsters are rather predictable. he never shows a sign of getting nervous during the whole game, but isn't this a requirement for being a good player? the guy plays slowly and methodically.

well, i have other things to do than watching demos and can't be sure he saved the game at some critical points (which might explain his absolutely consistent performance under pressure), but i wouldn't bluntly call someone a cheater unless i can prove it.

btw, the only demo i could still find on the tube is this hr2 m1 coop run. cheating during coop, does that work at all?

Go here if you wanna see a witch-hunt.

In that coop run, he's playing with kimo_xvirus who admitted to cheating before. Not that it matters, but I'm just saying.

As far as I know, you can't prove TAS (slow-motion, recording in segments) in Doom format demos, and using TAS features in prboom-plus is apparently easy to do. So if a person has questions about a player, what's that person supposed to do? How are they supposed to ask? In the misc demos thread, people said "yeah, it seems like TAS, but I know it could be legit". If the demos are legit, then there wouldn't be any pressure on Okuplok, would there? Either way, like I said the speculation will never end as long as Okuplok is gone.

Good players still get nervous. It depends on the situation.

I would get nervous if I knew I was having a good run, sometimes leading to self-sabotaged efforts. With experience, though, the nervousness becomes less obvious in the demo because of improved control. I wonder if any of those sudden nerve twitches in my earlier demos are still obvious, like in the NM100% movies.

Torr Samaho said:

btw, the only demo i could still find on the tube is this hr2 m1 coop run. cheating during coop, does that work at all?

that's a nice demo indeed, although i don't see how accusations of okuplok cheating in some demos imply he is doing so in everything he touches. he's apparently good, but the line between a good player and an immortal doomgod is often pretty thin. all it takes is re-record a screwup or 'divine' monster movement.

now okuplok shows up with very little history and starts producing demos that surpass the most revered demo scene legends (quality-wise, not time-wise that much). as krypto said, he records these godly efforts in 2-4hr sessions, heh. it's not impossible, but it's also very improbable. also it's just human to get nervous in a situation offering you a world class demo, i have a zdaemon rj demo where you can recognize my breakdown by the screen shaking along with my hands. :) okuplok is always an iceberg though, like he isn't afraid of failing, or doesn't care. it's just hard to believe.

Okuplok is a cheater.

Torr Samaho said:
well, i have other things to do than watching demos and can't be sure he saved the game at some critical points (which might explain his absolutely consistent performance under pressure), but i wouldn't bluntly call someone a cheater unless i can prove it.

That would promote cheating by making people nervous about voicing genuine doubts and suspicions. Cheating is not so hard, so people should be ready to discuss it if necessary, keeping an open mind and a positive attitude about any possible incidents. If they aren't capable of this, I would say they don't understand the context in which we are recording, or they have something to hide.

none of my demos are tas, though i dont blame people for thinking they are. after watching my sd20 demo i even think it looks like tas. as funny as this might sound i don't even know to use tas, except for slow mo, see monsters though walls and the hud. but i can assure you i never used any of those tools. when gggmork hinted i might of used the hud in my s230 demo i admitted to using it.

the reason i left was because i didn't like the way i was getting accused as i had done nothing wrong. i didn't make demos to gain respect i only did it for fun and for peoples entertainment. i apologise for disappearing out of blue and not giving my side of the story.

i know some people arn't gonna believe me but thats upto them. all that matters is i know i didn't cheat.

last night i did a demo in zdoom 2.4.1 of h232 and got a time of 13:23. 20+ secs slower then my other demo. it only took an hour to achieve so don't expect anything spectacular. i just did it to show i dont use tas.

h232-1323.zip

Okuplok said:

last night i did a demo in zdoom 2.4.1 of h232 and got a time of 13:23. 20+ secs slower then my other demo.

Why not sd20 zdoom demo? Without single hit and with comparable time please.

Well this is a surprising turn of events, not that my opinion matters.

Okuplok: Thanks for coming back and offering an explanation. Your behaviour did look odd, and maybe some people will believe you even if others don't.

I think you're more likely to be accepted back if you don't act very arrogantly. The very best players tend to be quite modest about their achievements, and the image with which you start your post hardly demonstrates that quality.

But anyway it's good that you are offering some further demos from which people can reach a fairer opinion on your play.