Why isn't Zdoom GPL?

As others have already pointed out, it's blatantly obvious that the OP is here to do nothing more than bash ZDaemon. Notice how he specifically singles out ZDaemon as a "closed source enthusiast port" despite the fact that it's not the only port to have its source closed. And perhaps the reason why ZDoom hasn't gone GPL is because Randy realizes that a lot of his port's popularity is due to the fact that all the multiplayer ports use it. I suspect making his port GPL and refusing to allow ZDaemon and Skulltag to use any of his code would end up hurting ZDoom more in the long one.

Excellent, can't wait for it to happen. It'd be really great if ZDoom could force Zdaemon to remove all Zdoom related code.

So sorry to disappoint you, but if ZDoom was to go GPL it wouldn't apply retroactively, meaning that ZDaemon and Skulltag wouldn't have to remove shit. Looks like that won't destroy the port you despise so much after all.

Madgunner said:

I suspect making his port GPL and refusing to allow ZDaemon and Skulltag to use any of his code would end up hurting ZDoom more in the long one.

ZDaemon does not count. It was forked off 9 years ago and never updated its code base.

Skulltag is another matter - but if something happened that would prevent it from using ZDoom code my guess would be that it'd end up in the same niche as ZDaemon if it doesn't open its source: A closed off multiplayer community with no ties to the rest of the Doom users.

I wouldn't worry about this scenario at all.

Madgunner said:

As others have already pointed out, it's blatantly obvious that the OP is here to do nothing more than bash ZDaemon. Notice how he specifically singles out ZDaemon as a "closed source enthusiast port" despite the fact that it's not the only port to have its source closed. And perhaps the reason why ZDoom hasn't gone GPL is because Randy realizes that a lot of his port's popularity is due to the fact that all the multiplayer ports use it. I suspect making his port GPL and refusing to allow ZDaemon and Skulltag to use any of his code would end up hurting ZDoom more in the long one.

Well the ZDoom developers have access to the Skulltag source. (Well Randy doesn't, but I'm sure Torr would have no problems if he wanted it.) Seriously, the only reason you don't see more upstream stuff from Skulltag is because not much in there is worth back porting (quality wise).

You are right Madgunner I personally dislike Zdaemon, however I am not here to solely bash Zdaemon. I find it real messed up that Zdaemon owes its existence to Zdoom and continues to take there code to this very day yet Zdaemon has given absolutely nothing back. That is messed up and should not be allowed. At least Skulltag lets the Zdoom developers have access to their source code unlike Zdaemon. Does it not seem unfair to you that a port can take all the code they want but not give any code back? I see it as extremely unfair and that is exactly what the Doom Source License allows. This needs to stop. The Zdaemon developers should show more respect to the very community that it owes its existence to but we all know that this is never going to happen.

You are wrong about Zdaemon not having to remove any of its code. If Zdoom was to go GPL any code in its current source could not be used in any non GPL ports without permission. I'm quite sure that Zdaemon has code that is in the current version of Zdoom and they would have to remove it.

ZDaemon does not count. It was forked off 9 years ago and never updated its code base.
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I think it does count actually. Yes they use an ancient buggy version of Zdoom that is total crap but they do have some 2.x features. Even if they had 0 2.x features they should still give back imo. Even you have to agree that it would be real nice if Zdoom, GZdoom, and the rest of the ports had some decent net code.

Cyberbaron2 said:

You are wrong about Zdaemon not having to remove any of its code. If Zdoom was to go GPL any code in its current source could not be used in any non GPL ports without permission. I'm quite sure that Zdaemon has code that is in the current version of Zdoom and they would have to remove it.

This is completely untrue and demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of copyright and licensing.

Also, stop double posting.

(Or just stop posting.)

Cyberbaron2 said:

You are wrong about Zdaemon not having to remove any of its code. If Zdoom was to go GPL any code in its current source could not be used in any non GPL ports without permission. I'm quite sure that Zdaemon has code that is in the current version of Zdoom and they would have to remove it.

That's not true because licenses like the BSD are non-revokable. Once permission has been granted for use under such a license, the only thing that can overturn it is force of law, such as a ruling by a judge stating that the rights were not properly granted in the first place, or an act of Congress that changes copyright and licensing laws.

Darn this is too bad. If only Doom had been published under the GPL from the start *sigh*.

If Randy isn't bitching, why should anybody else?

Normally the most recalcitrant open-source totalitarians are also the ones that never do anything with the source once released.

Porsche Monty said:

If Randy isn't bitching, why should anybody else?

This might be a shock to you, but randy wasn't the only one who contributed code to ZDaemon. Nowhere close, in fact. I've had former contributors confide in me that code they're pretty sure that contributed is still in use. Perhaps they were naive at the time to see that ZDaemon could never have been legal GPL, but it's still a dick move to take their work, which they had a reasonable expectation of being contributed to a project that would remain open source, is now being used in a closed source port.

Kilgore also claims he ripped out all the old code that was explicitly GPL, but there's no way to audit it to find out.

Normally the most recalcitrant open-source totalitarians are also the ones that never do anything with the source once released.

Oh jesus I _really_ had to keep from laughing at the irony of a ZDaemon player calling other people totalitarians. But in any case...

Surely you're not referring to the lineage of GPL ports that are still in active use today (Chocolate Doom, prBoom+, Eternity). In terms of ZDoom, I believe that Graf has even expressed interest (and please correct me if I'm wrong on this, Graf) in releasing GZDoom under the GPL or similar copyleft license if all the remaining licencing issues get worked out (which would require finishing the OpenAL branch and gutting the software renderer...or potentially rewriting all the BUILD bits). And you can hardly accuse Graf Zahl of sitting back and doing nothing. In fact, of all of the dozens of doom source ports developers out there, there's only two who are working on closed source ports. Kilgore and Torr Samaho, and I've been pushing for that to be reduced to one.

But of course it's obvious which port you're needling. Odamex is stagnant not because open source projects with lots of passion behind it are doomed to fail, but simply because it doesn't have a lead coder. When Odamex was first released, we (I was there) had a lead coder in denis. Unfortunately, he vanished and there hasn't been anybody to step in his shoes (and we were lucky that Odamex was open source, if Kilgore vanishes in a hissy-fit you guys are fucked).

However, let's be honest with ourselves, if Odamex development has been slow in the past few years, ZDaemon's has been absolutely glacial, which is hilarious considering that it _has_ a lead coder. Kilgore has been supremely lucky:

• He inherited a mostly-working client/server port. People like to say that Nightfang's ZDaemon was pretty unstable, but they probably remember the bad old pre-0.99 and 0.99 days...ZDaemon was actually reasonably functional when he left, which is why the playerbase that was there existed in the first place
  
• He got two very important code dumps, the first being duke4ever's CTF implementation and Dashiva's X-Doom. There was something about Dashiva and Skulltag here but I need to verify it before adding it back in.
  
• And of course Nightfang wouldn't have had a ZDaemon to give to Kilgore without Fly's open source CSDoom, or without Randy's open source ZDoom, and of course without John Carmack's open source Doom.

Doubtless Kilgore has contributed code to ZDaemon to turn it into what it is today, and apparently work on 1.09 is mostly finished...no idea why he's sitting on it...but Kilgore has stood on the shoulders of giants and has given the rest of the doom community...and many former members of the ZDaemon community...a shit sandwich in return. He's been coasting for years, and the community that remains does so for three primary reasons: ZDaemon is "good enough", the IDL exists, and FUD about Skulltag and Odamex is easy to spread when you control the main communication outlets and can simply zot people who cross you. Looking at the development history of Odamex in the same timeframe and you will see steady progress in comparison, and you might not actually want to look at Skulltag's development history because it might give you whiplash (and shock, considering how many OS compatibility fixes have been cranked out in recent years).

So why the such vocal support for open source in the doom community? Simple, people don't want to get burned by another Kilgore.

As a funny little anecdote, it's a very funny thing to us old timers to see ZDaemon shills now constantly trot out the chestnut that open source development doesn't work and is prone to cheats (oh hey look what I found) when we were trotting out lines that open source was one of the advantages that ZDaemon had over Skulltag. Funny how things change, I suppose next you'll tell me that ZDaemon has always been at war with Eastasia.

AlexMax said:

Oh jesus I _really_ had to keep from laughing at the irony of a ZDaemon player calling other people totalitarians. But in any case...

That's one lofty assumption on your part.

Porsche Monty said:

That's one lofty assumption on your part.

What, my assumption that you play ZDaemon? My apologies, but your original reply sounded just like one. I'm assuming that your lack of response to the rest of the post means that you concede the other points, then?

AlexMax said:

What, my assumption that you play ZDaemon? My apologies, but your original reply sounded just like one. I'm assuming that your lack of response to the rest of the post means that you concede the other points, then?

From what I've read so far it looks like making assumptions isn't your thing.

Porsche Monty said:

From what I've read so far it looks like making assumptions isn't your thing.

What a delightfully snarky yet in-substantive response. The ball is in your court.